Intermodal 101 - A Discussion with Anne Reinke on the Future of Intermodal Freight

The container doesn’t magically appear at your warehouse when it comes off the vessel, and that gap between “arrived at port” and “delivered” is where intermodal either shines or breaks. We sit down with Anne Reinke, President and CEO of the Intermodal Association of North America (IANA), to trace the real container journey and the behind-the-scenes systems that keep freight moving across ocean shipping, ports, drayage, rail, and logistics providers.

Anne shares her unexpected career path through CSX, USDOT, and the freight brokerage world, and what each vantage point reveals about how the supply chain actually works under stress. We dig into what happened during COVID when curfews, closed rest stops, and uncertainty collided with the need to keep essential freight moving and why better multimodal coordination at DOT matters long after the crisis headlines fade.

We also get practical about today’s risks and pressures: cargo theft, strategic theft, fraudulent and “chameleon” carriers, and the tough balancing act of carrier vetting and broker liability. From there, we break down the UIIA in plain English, including how shared standards, driver databases, chassis tracking, street turns, and geofencing help the intermodal ecosystem speak the same operational language.

We wrap with why the IANA Intermodal Expo in Long Beach is a must-attend moment for anyone touching containers, equipment, ports, rail, trucking, technology, policy, or supply chain security. Subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a review if the show helps you make the regulatory and operational side of freight clearer.

Transcript

BLABS: Anne Reinke on the Future of Intermodal Freight

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Ready to go.

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You're listening to By Land and By Sea, powered by the Maritime Professor.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

We're still talking about ocean shipping today.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Obviously, it's my favorite topic. But today, we're gonna follow that container a little more inlet. Because as much as I love ocean shipping, the container does not magically appear at the warehouse once it comes off the vessel. I don't need to tell you that, right? It still needs the equipment, it still needs a driver, perhaps a rail move, and a lot of coordination among companies that don't always speak the same operational language. And that is where intermodal comes in, my friends. And that is where IANA has built some of the systems that help make the entire system work. You may not have even known it was actually IANA, the Intermodal Association of North America, that was behind some of those key systems. My guest today is Ann Ranke, the president and CEO of IANA. And let me tell you, she has seen the freight system from almost every angle. We talk about her unexpected path into transportation, how many of us got there. Although I sought out maritime, of course, maritime. We talk about what it was like inside DOT as the supply chain was tested to its limits during COVID. We talk about what she learned leading the Transportation Intermediaries Association, TIA, through the often misunderstood world of freight brokerage. We talk about what IANA has created that we may not even know that keeps intermodal freight moving. And we also talk about why the industry's biggest conversations are headed to Long Beach once again this September. Well, stick around. Let's get into it. Hi, welcome back to Byland and by Sea, an attorney breaking down the weekend supply chain, presented by the Maritime Professor. Me, I'm Lauren Beegan, founder of the Maritime Professor, former FMC International Affairs Attorney, and founder of Skull Strategies. By Land and by Sea is your go-to resource for navigating the regulatory side of global ocean shipping. And me? Well, I'm your favorite maritime attorney, aren't I? As always, this podcast for educational purposes only and should not be considered legal advice. There is no attorney-client privilege created by this video or this podcast. You need an attorney to contact an attorney. So let's get into it because as you know, ocean shipping moves the world. All right, like I said at the outset, today I'm joined by my friend Ann Ranke, president and CEO of the Intermodal Association of North America, better known as IANA. Anne has had a really interesting career in transportation. Before joining IANA, she served as the president and CEO of the Transportation Intermediaries Association, TIA. Before that, she held senior roles at the USDOT in both congressional and intergovernmental affairs, following an already wonderfully long and rich career at CSX. She is also a lawyer, so naturally I wanted to know whether she had actually planned any of this or whether transportation found her the way it finds so many of us. Some of you may know IANA through their intermodal expo every year. I hope to see you there. Others may know the name or recognize the UIIA, but may not fully understand how much practical work the organization really does behind the scenes. At its core, IANA brings together the different participants involved in moving freight across the intermodal system. One of its most important programs is the UIIA, which provides a shared framework for motor carriers and equipment providers to manage the interchange of containers. Don't worry, we don't go too far into the weeds of the uniform intermodal interchange and facilities access agreement. Let's just call it the UIIA. And I'll break it down in this conversation in plain English directly from the source who knows it best. By Land and by Sea is also proud to be a media partner for this year's Diana Intermodal Expo. And I'll be speaking at the event and even hosting my podcast there this fall. So yes, we talk about why, if you're not building this into your Moscow schedule, you're really missing out. Look, I'm talking to you, Ocean Shipping World. Anne has now seen the freight system from rail, government, brokerage, association leadership, and intermodal. And I wanted to hear how those experiences fit together, what she believes Diana does especially well, and where she sees the transportation industry heading next. So please enjoy my conversation with Anne Ranky.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Anne Ranky, president and CEO of the Intramodal Association of North America.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Thank you so much for joining on By Land and By Sea today. Thank you, Lauren. And I love the fact that the title, the acronym is Blabs. Heaven is Blabs. That's right. When I send out the link, it's Blabs guest. Yeah, that's what we do. We just blab about the blab. That's right. Coincidence. Yeah. Yeah, no, but thank you so much for joining today. I think this is already off to a great start. Yeah, we're so excited to have you here. And this is such a wonderful time to be talking about the Intermodal Association of North America for obvious reasons. Intermodal, right? All parts of the supply chain. Everybody's talking about supply chain being a total ecosystem. So I think that this is an opportunity, a wonderful opportunity for our listeners to learn more about Iana if they weren't already aware of it. But before we get into the meat of the conversation, what I always like to do is learn a little bit more about those that are in charge. That way it kind of helps my listeners learn a little bit more about perhaps the decisions that you might be taking or the experience that led you

Anne's Path into Transportation

SPEAKER_02 6:00

up to this role. So if it's all right, I'd like to jump right into it and let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up and how the heck did you get into transportation? Was it always something that you were actually interested in? You know, you also went to law school, a fellow lawyer, a good lawyer, right? We are nice lawyers. How did you get into the transportation industry?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yes, there are nice lawyers out there. So, you know, it's interesting you say this, Lauren, because now I have a 17-year-old son and I'm like, he's directionless. What is he gonna do with himself? But I did not always think I was going to be a transportation professional. I did not think it as a young age, it just sort of happened. But here's long story short. So I went to law school. I then went to a law firm and I was doing the work of a trained monkey, and I thought there's got to be something else. And always thought the lawyer, like being a lawyer, was going to be fun. But you know what? Being a lawyer teaches you to be an advocate, and you can be an advocate in many different ways. So you can be a sales advocate, right? Trying to sell a product. You can be a lobbyist where you're lobbying for a company or an idea or a concept. And so I started dipping my toes into that. And I started out at this very small association. They hired me because I had a law degree. So I cannot ever regret the fact that I got a law degree because it has you, you know, people think that you're sort of have a way of logical thinking and reasoning and all that stuff. And so I went from that very small association to the AAR, which is Association of American Railroads. And from there, CSX sort of recruited me because they're a member, you're a member company. And I was there for 16 years. And I was there, it was mostly happy. It was a 14 out of the 16 years were really good. Even though things go bump in the night, you get calls at three o'clock in the morning and something terrible has happened. Typically, it's like on Super Bowl Sunday or Thanksgiving or whatever, right? Anyway, that's right. Always, always, but we had a great I loved my boss, I loved the team, and then it all changed. We had this, I'm not gonna, you know, revisit history, but we had the shareholder action and a new new executive team installed, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to take my leap and I went to work for the federal government, and that was so interesting. And I'm so glad I did it because you talk about intermodal being multimodal. That's where I got my true exposure to multimodal. And it and if I hadn't gone there, I wouldn't have had the jobs that I had after that.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

That's right. Well, and you've been building through your career too. I mean, each one, you can kind of follow the lineage of your career progression and the things that you've learned that have undoubtedly benefited you in the next position for decision making. So you were at CSX from early 2000s through about the 2019 spring of 2019, which is a really interesting time for rail, anyways. It was it was kind of a growth period of sorts, but also rail, much like maritime, often works kind of in the in the shadows, I want to say. You know, it's it's not aviation, right? It's not the one that's out there that all the consumers know and love and are part of. Rail, while there is Amtrak, it's still part of this kind of the same thing with Maritime. We have cruising, but it's still not exactly kind of the freight movement of the goods. And so what an interesting position that that I'm sure that was at CSX to learn and and to kind of peel back the onion of this industry that that many don't know really the nuts and bolts of. And so, what were some of those things that you weren't really learning of the rail industry at CSX or even at AAR, American Association of Railroads, where you really kind of learned a little bit more meat about the railroad system and the supply chain? Were you focused on some of those interchange moments that that per DM world that is kind of now in vogue, if you want if we want to bring some fun terminology to supply chain? But you know, talk to me a little bit more about that side of things.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Sure. I mean, so yes, free rail is your prototypical B2B. There is no consumer facing, really, and there's no reason for any of the American public to care about it unless they're the train is blocking your ability to go somewhere. There is a train derailment where you hear a train horn noise and it wakes you up and it wakes up your baby. And believe me, those are uploaded. I heard every single one of those, and that was part of my job was because I was uh, you know, uh vice president of federal affairs, so you'd have these constituent issues that would bubble up. But so people don't think about railroads at all unless it's sort of that, those are the the reasons. And and here you have this 10% of the freight marketplace is is freight rail. Of that, you know, 5% of I mean half of that is intermodal. And so it's the unseen, unheard, like unsexy stuff that is going across the country that god forbid, if it didn't, there would be a real problem. I remember back in 2001, I was at AAR. So this was this is after 9-11, and it was when the Afghan, Afghanistan war was starting, and UP made the decision that they were going to embargo chlorine because they were concerned there was going to be some ripple effects, like they didn't want to have everyone thought they were a high threat target risk, rail freight railroads, everybody did, right? So they did not want to subject a train of chlorine if you're in a high threat area, because that can be disastrous and kill many people. Well, within three days, Los Angeles was like, we cannot clean our water. We what are we supposed to do? And you know, by the way, they're not making a fortune off of chlorine. They have to, right? Union Pacific and all the railroads are common carriers. So, so all of these things are are sort of going on behind the scenes and nobody really pays attention until something bad happens, which is unfortunate. I think what railroads now have done is try to create positive messages like, did you know you get 435 miles per gallon from a railroad, like that kind of stuff? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Which is wonderful to like you're saying, you you only really see it at crossings, right? Perhaps mostly the middle of the country. I've done a couple cross-country drives, and I mean the length of these rail cars, right? I mean, how many? I mean, the I don't is this at all like information we can't share, but how how many cars can be lined up? Like what is the traditional amount of cars that's lined up? Because it felt like it went on for miles, right? I mean, you're like, oh my gosh, that's that's still the same train.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah. So most of the most of the trains are are gonna have cars that number fewer than, say, one mile. Okay. These mega trains, every now and then that you see that go up to two miles, there is no regulated length of train. Interesting. There's no sort of like safety regulation. The FRA says it should not be longer than X. Part of that kind of longer train thing was part of this PSR mantra that took over the railroad industry by storm, which is you want to have fewer trains of longer lengths to be more efficient, more productive. Whether or not that's true, that's certainly lots of people argue about it. But that's kind of what you what you have seen more of.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah, makes sense. Kind of that economies of scale, right? The light, the vessels, the water, right? The the larger and the more you can stuff on there. So that's that's really interesting. But so getting back to you started to talk about going to DC, right? You so then you you went to the university, the university United States, Department of Transportation, kind of also university. There's a good alumni network. And you were working as the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Intergovernment Affairs, and then you were the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Congressional Affairs. And what was really interesting, I thought, was that this was during that 2019-2020 time frame. So not only were you coming in with this, you know, that was a wonderful example with the chlorine and understanding the severity of some of the dangers in an uncertain time, but then going through COVID when the movement and efficiency and actually reliability of movement of goods and quickly was so important. So you came in to deal with that information of seeing it from kind of the the consumer's perspective, but also the necessary requirement of goods moving around quickly. How was that experience during those few years?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Well, so one experience definitely stands out. So COVID hits March of 2020, and you know, obviously it hits everybody differently. But so DOT, I think we went away for one week and then came back. I mean, I'm probably exaggerating. It was probably more than one week, but we we went and came back pretty quickly. And part of the right reason was we were in this uncharted territory. For example, there were many states that, if you recall, put in curfews for everybody, not just people, you know, driving to Granny's house, but but the truck driver driving to get commodities to where everybody needs to go out to get them. And so, how could that happen when there were like these ones on grocery stores and no one has toilet paper and where's the paper towels and blah blah blah? I got paper towels from Turkey. I swear to God. It's like, what where are we? What's happening? So one of the things that we had to do immediately was determine who is an essential worker, an essential transportation worker. Unfortunately, you know, cooler heads prevailed. And so we we were able to make this determination that at the very least, truck drivers, railroad workers, I'm sure in the maritime industry, the same thing. You need these people not to have a curfew, they cannot be sidelined. And oh, by the way, you do need to have space for them to stop. Like, remember, all the rest stops were closed, and the it was just sort of like no one's no one was thinking clearly. They were just reacting, like, I've got to do something. And so fortunately, you had we made these sort of incremental steps to actually get all the freight moving. And then what it did, as you know, it exploded and there was so much freight going on.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

That's right. Well, no one knew which way it was gonna go. Were all these businesses gonna go out of business? Was nobody gonna be ordering? I mean, other than the essentials, right? The e-commerce world, nobody knew if people were going to be restricting their spending to try to save their money because maybe this was the Great Depression, you know, coming back again. Or was this going to be an everybody sitting at home a little bored, looking around, saying, My couch is really ugly. I need a new one. And it turns out it was the second, right? And these are 20 foot. But exactly. Turns out these 20 foot, 40-foot boxes are still 20 foot and 40 feet in an emergency. So that container full of couches became a little bit more expensive. But yeah, I mean, but that was it, right? Nobody really knew which way it was going to go. This was a, you know, it was it was a strange time for a lot of people, but this ended up being an interesting highlight on the maritime side because Marathon was actually forgotten as one of the essential workers on one of the first lists. Yeah. And then a lot of states had maritime workers as essential workers. But when the federal essential worker list rolled out at first, the ports and and the maritime workers weren't actually included. And so now it will never be forgotten. Right now it became part of that list.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Where you had 200 ships off the coast of LA Long Beach that couldn't get in. Now that was for other reasons. It wasn't just because of that, but yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

And so all and like that was the linchpin, right? That was the connector point for all of this stuff. They were flying in a lot of PPE, but also I remember hearing Jean Soroka in LA was able to kind of track which PPE shipments were coming in and when. And, you know, kind of there were monthly updates or weekly updates, or it was just such an it it ended up becoming, you know, at least for the maritime side, uh a nice flashlight on the importance of the otherwise unknown worker. And it sounded like trains actually kind of had that same thing. So when the truck drivers weren't able to be driving, or while they were getting these things ironed out on just how they were able to be able to do their job, the trains were actually still able to run during that time.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, there was a little bit of a service meltdown because unfortunately, during like 2018, 2019, there was a reduction in force to many of the railroads. So again, part of this PSR, we're gonna be more efficient, we don't need as many people and all that. And then when you had the volume of freight come back, and really it took a couple of months to your point. It wasn't immediate. It was probably more around May, June timeframe. Then it was like, oh my gosh, we don't have enough people. So there was a little bit of a survey, and same thing with like the ports and all of that. There was so much commerce coming at the same time, and people just hadn't been as prepared. They were used to just in time delivery. You know this. I mean, it wasn't like people wanted to build up the amount of inventory because they didn't want to have this sense of we're gonna go without again.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah, yeah. It was, I mean, just the things that happened just from the flashlight on the supply chain. I mean, it obviously highlighted some weak points, but it also I think really helped future proof. And I hate saying future-proof, but right, future-proof of a few of those kind of connector pieces that that really fell apart. And so hopefully we'll we will never be back there with the COVID congestion and kind of that like, oh my gosh, everybody on depth right now moment. But I it feels like we're probably as a full supply chain, definitely more prepared for the next I agree.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

And and having you know, USCOT, there they have now a freight office, right, where they they sort of oversee this flow initiative, which is really the private entities giving data to let people know sort of the health of the supply chain. I mean, there is there is merit in that. Now, every day, does that mean something is going to happen? No, but they are prepared if there is some sort of shortfall or some kind of supply chain disruption. They're a little bit more prepared to know how to actually handle it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

And probably something that's been needed for a while at DOT, anyways, is you know, you have all the different modes and you have the office of the secretary kind of managing all of them. But it and they're also doing everything, right? So having a dedicated office for multimodal trait policy is such a smart move because that was something that at least you have a full office dedicated to bridging all of those gaps. Because at least, you know, I'm going to always kind of bring this back to Maritime. Maritime can feel a little bit like odd man out, right? Aviation is the part that has consumer facing. And so Maritime can feel a little left out of the larger conversation or even the prioritization because it just doesn't have as many squeaky wheels that call up Congress.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

And so many, you know, they're not necessarily all US flag vessels, right? So that that makes it that much of a harder conversation to to get your members of Congress to support you, right? That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

But no less necessary, right? Because 90% of everything, 90% of everything moves by ocean transit. So but arguably a hundred percent of everything moves by some sort of intermodal movement, which is why it's so interesting where you started to kind of bridge in your own experience the other different parts of the intermodal

Leading TIA and the Freight Broker World

SPEAKER_02 21:02

world of supply chain. So then in 2020, you took over the Transportation Intermediaries Association at this kind of critical point. What did that experience teach you? What did you kind of learn through that at the Transportation Intermediaries Association?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Well, a couple of things. I mean, so you're talking about trains and maritime industry being B2B and sort of the unsung, like nobody knows what's happening. I do think that's sort of true also of the 3PL space. They are the middleman. So they don't have a product or they're not riding a truck or they're not, it's not a tangible service necessarily. People don't understand it. And so now you have these millions of people who rely on 3PLs who literally could not get what they need to go where it needs to go in the most efficient way possible without that. I mean, their specialty is transportation management, essentially. And if you're a shipper, your specialty is not. Transportation management, your specialty is whatever your product is. And so why would you want to take on an additional task of something you're not good at instead of focusing on what you are good at, which is making that product? So you know, the dependence that the shipper had, particularly during this time of supply chain function on the 3PL industry, it ratcheted up significantly. And so why is that? Because the 3PL folk really had their hands-on capacity that a shipper necessar wouldn't necessarily know about. You know, they play in the spot market. They obviously play in contract marketplace too, but because they have relationships with so many different, mainly truck, right? They're, you know, 80% of that membership is truck facing, 20% others, you know, intermodal, et cetera. They have their ability to capture capacity that, you know, if you're a shipper just trying to contract a freight line or what have you, you may not be able to do.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah, and that's so interesting too. I mean, they're essentially the travel agents, if you will, of the movement of the goods, right? I mean, they're the ones that know, you know, to kind of keep with the metaphor, all of the discounts that are coming along or all of the new specials, right? I mean, kind of if you assimilated to a travel agent booking a cruise or booking a group rate, or you know, it it really kind of is a similar thing, but that's not the side that always gets all of the attention. And so what an interesting job, though, for DOT generally, and then down to or to over really to to Transportation Intermediate Association to then kind of round out the you get more illumination of this corner of the supply chain that really helps build your knowledge of of how the broker side works and and you know how that kind of operationally works because those were your members there and those were who you were talking to all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, and it's interesting too. It prepared me for a lot of things. It's it's a fabulous organization and and certainly leading it was was an honor for me, but it also prepared too for the critical role that a 3PL, you know, in the intermodal space, we call them IMCs, intermodal marketing companies play. It's really to boost intermodal writ large because they have these relationships with the shippers that they bring to the truck drivers or in in the intermodal case, they bring it to the railroads. And so honestly, the success of intermodal in large part is on the success of the IMC. If we can have help them, because look, we don't have a whole lot of spark spot marketing happening here in intermodal because you have to reserve space on trains. And that's not something you can do, like, hey, you guys got space today, right? Like these are high volume, long distance, typically, you know, this is not something you can do overnight. You got to kind of schedule it out. But the fact that, you know, you have an IMC that can make this very important connection happen, can sell the service as this is the highest best use of each mode. You have your Dre driver on other on either side, ultimately the ocean carrier brings it to you. You have your Dray driver, you have your port that facilitates the Dre's move to from the train or to the train. All of this comes together and it does it in a sustainable way. And so that's sort of how you the IMC is the ambassador to the service.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah. What was so? I guess what was one of your biggest maybe misunderstandings of kind of the the freight broker 3PL side before you actually got into TIA? I had no misunderstandings. Okay. You knew everything, you knew it all. I know what a catch, what a catch question. But it but I guess my my thought is here, like it's such a complicated area that really isn't understood. So, like, if you had something, even with your exposure to it at DOT, if you had something that maybe really kind of straightened out in your mind once you got there, it might help others kind of understand that side of you know the supply chain, the three people freak rover side.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah. What's interesting is when I was at DOT, there was a big again, going back to the early days of the pandemic, there was a trucker protest. Again, I think this was May of 2020, where they weren't making much money because at that point freight wasn't really moving yet. And so they accused the brokers of ripping them off, right? Of having excessive margins, 40 to 60 percent margins, and then they're just, you know, minimizing what they were paying the truck driver. Now, that wasn't the case, but that certainly was what the feeling was. Well, that went away for a long time because the truck drivers then got more business than they could shake a stick at, as we know, and there was no capacity, and so we didn't hear anything for a while. But what I learned when I went to TIA is the average broker gets is a fifth 15% margin. Wow. Which most businesses, you know, you don't you'd like to make more than that. And the relationship with the trucker and the broker is to me was needlessly confrontational because without the trucker, the broker knows that you you can't actually move anything. And if you want to have someone who's good who does business for you again, you you kind of want to make sure that you treat them well. And so it's sort of like a short-sighted viewpoint. Well, why as a broker would I try to, you know, cheap out my my truck driver? I'm not gonna be in business very long. No, of course, they're bad people in all businesses. We all know that. But you know, I think there was this kind of needless, like, well, we need to make sure the rate con, the, you know, the rate con is what it says it is, and we want to know how much we're money we're making. And it's like, well, I mean, you know, there's all kinds of things that go into a into a broker's sort of net of of what they're charging, right? It's like, well, we got employees, we got office, we got the lights on, we've got the service we're providing, we're investing in technology, all of these things. And so, you know, it's been pretty quiet that issue, because we've been talking about broker liability, quite frankly. And so this has not been such an issue. But I think I learned a little bit more about that. And, you know, ultimately, we're all here to make money, we're all here to run a good business. And if we're successful, a truck driver is successful too. Yeah. I mean, that was yeah, yeah, sort of the viewpoint there.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's so interesting too, because it was it, I can imagine it was probably always kind of based on relationships, right? And and really, truly, anybody in supply chain is assault to the earth people. I mean, it's just hardy people willing to work hard and and be part of solution. And so if that breakdown between the two sides, I'm wondering kind of what drove that was that it, you know, probably tightening of the markets, you know, maybe that's where the margins were starting to to kind of tighten so there wasn't as much money around and available, like you said, during COVID, when things got better, then everything, everybody was quiet, they were too busy counting their dollars, right? Of sorts. But but it was also kind of one of those I mean, whenever those relationships get stressed, you go back kind of historically, it was probably always uh based on kind of a handshake and a relationship. I guess my question is is it traditionally that a broker will only have a few uh carriers that they work with? Or do they really, is there an intention to try to diversify some of the carriers that they're working with so that they can diversify those relationships, or do they really kind of stick to the same couple that they trust and know to to hedge that insecurity when things get tight and that distrust, it sounds like that kind of uh creeped in?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, so you you're asking a really current and relevant question because I I would say prior to 2021, 2022, it would be we need as much relationships with as many carriers as possible because the the system is stressed to the its max. And so the better, you know, sort of you know, framework of folk we have, the better we're going to be able to do our job. Now, what happens in 2022? We start hearing all about freight fraud, cargo theft, chameleon carriers, all of these things. And so then it's like, uh-oh, we need to vet the heck out of our carriers because we don't want to have some sort of, you know, fake they call them chameleon carriers, right? We know these are fake carriers who who steal the load and we never see it again. Because that that wrecks our business, it wrecks our relationship with our customers, it wrecks our relationship with our truck drivers, et cetera. And so it really that became the focus at that point. It's like we got to vet the crap out of them, and we've got to make sure that we have a really tightened understanding about who we're doing business with. And then that then you saw the rise of these sort of third-party solutions that are these carrier vetting solutions. And now we're in the next stage because of this broker liability in the Supreme Court Montgomery case, Montgomery versus Kareeb, where it's like, how much responsibility does a broker have if something goes wrong from a safety perspective? And so the Supreme Court basically said that there's there should be a role for the broker to play here, that they should not be absolved of all responsibility. Or mainly federal law does not prohibit them, right? That was sort of the narrow holding. So God, it's it's a very tough time to figure out as a broker. It's like how you don't want to have so much responsibility for your carrier because then you're gonna have this sort of virtual liability, right? But you don't want to have no responsibility for your hire because then you're gonna have negligent hiring. So they they're in a kind of difficult predicament right now.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yeah. Kind of like a defensible background check of sorts, right? They that they actually did a little bit of due diligence, they actually did a little bit of research on whoever they were working with to show nothing stood out and kind of the average person wouldn't have seen any problems here. But it really is. I mean, I'm I'm so glad that you moved it into cargo theft because that was kind of what I was thinking, right? It was very relationship-based, and now they're having to diversify, as as many on the supply chain are, having to diversify those that they work with. And some of these companies are are getting in on, maybe not even for bad reasons, just getting in on the boom of supply chain, right? I mean, they saw giant ocean carriers making trillions of dollars. So they were like, well, there's got to be money in this. Let me let me go check it out. So there might be good people. There definitely are good people coming into the industry, starting up a new business in whatever area. But on the other hand, as the good comes in, so does some of the bad, right? And that's

The Rise of Cargo Theft

SPEAKER_02 33:00

why, you know, we we just spoke with Scott Cornell, the king of cargo theft mitigation. No one better than he. Nobody is no one better than than Scott Cornell. So we just interviewed him on the on the show. But that it's just alarming to see the incredible rise in cargo theft generally, and that it's straight theft, but also strategic theft, right? And that's that it, even though strategic theft is a smaller portion, it still is that manipulation piece. And that's really what this comes down to is the manipulation side of creating fake companies or you know, or or just showing up and stealing loads. And yeah, it's it's a it's a wild world out there.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

It's a wild world. And and as you know, and and I'm sure Scott talked about the sort of prohibitions to not commit fraud or not commit cargo theft, it's let's just say it's a soft underbelly of enforcement. There just has not been this kind of rigorous enforcement that would deter any of these criminals. Now, partially because many of them are operating from outside of the country, right? These are, you know, networks of gangs from all kinds of unpleasant countries that hate us and they're seeking to make money. And so they're they're untouchable. So that's part of it, right? And the other part is that while there have been attempts, particularly, you know, the FMCSA has this new MODIS database where they're they're having some problems. We know this. I don't want to, I don't want to complain about them. They are having problems. But the the attempt is there and the and the effort is there to try to rein in the number of carriers that are not real, that are registering as if they were real, because we're they're trying to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Now, in the intermodal space, you don't necessarily have as much of a fraud problem because you have this more confined ecosystem, right? And we haven't talked about UIIA and we will in a second, but there is sort of this, there is a framework of how you get along with all the different partners, and there are, you know, requirements to be part of moving any kind of intermodal container, et cetera. You don't have that issue of fraud, but you do have this issue of theft. And whether it's strategic, meaning there are drones who are following a train car and they can see what that, you know, they can figure out what's on it and they know it's high value and they'll figure, oh, well, that's going to stop at some point. We'll just take that opportunity to crack open the back and get in. Or if it's at a yard or what have you. And so, you know, that's why we're all sort of screaming in the wind, like, okay, we've got to do something more than we're doing in terms of enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Yeah, and and that's a really interesting point on enforcement, too. One of the most alarming things I think I've learned from Scott on this is that there just really isn't, as you're saying, a good reporting mechanism. So we don't actually know what the numbers truly look like. And it's it's probably a multiplier on what numbers that anybody is actually reporting. But then beyond that, I've heard him say that there really isn't a federal offense for this, right? I mean, that's what Corcas seeks to create so that there is an actual cargo theft offense that you could be, you know, charged on cargo theft, but oftentimes it's just theft generally, or it might be, you know, stealing, or it might be fraud. So it gets kind of minimized through multiple channels where it then you can aggregate all of those, but not all thefts are cargo theft, right? And not all fraud is actually related to the movement of goods. And so it really is hard to see. We certainly can feel it, all of us in the industry. And when it hits you, it hits you hard, right? I mean, that all of a sudden you care a lot about cargo theft, but it's it's really one of those things that I don't. I mean, of course, right? We're we're all legit. I can't believe this isn't a bigger deal. But like you're saying, we're we're screaming into the wind, but like this is one of the largest deals and probably would produce shall consumer product good grocery store prices if we got a better handle on what is happening in cargo theft so that we could have a better handle on how to approach it.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

You're exactly right. It's an anti-inflationary measure. Not several things, yeah, for sure. And you know what's sad is that it's so the legislation you mentioned, CORCA combating organized retail crime and stuff, which includes cargo theft, is a bipartisan measure, right? It already passed the house. God bless, nothing passes bipartisan anymore. Like this is a big deal. People agree, but it's gotten hung up in the Senate, and it's and not because people don't think it's a good idea, but they're mad about other things. And so they're mad about like ICE, for example. And so part of this legislation would create an information center within DHS, and they don't want to give DHS more authority. Well, yeah, but we also have to have someplace to house some kind of information center. Where is the best place? This is what the legislation suggested because they already had an infrastructure around there. It's not to give ICE more authority so that they can go, you know, do road stops or anything like that. It's literally so that all the people who are involved, from the states to the feds, from the FBI to DHS to DOT, all can talk to each other and have an understanding about how big this problem is. Because Scott's exactly right. You know, not everyone reports this theft because they'd just rather have either not a claim at all or just make it up to their customer and just like wash their hands of it. They don't want to report it to insurance or whatever the rationale is. And so we really don't have a good sense of that. Not everybody calls the FBI hotline to report it. And I would say the last thing is that many states deal with this as a property crime. They already are stretched thin in terms of like human crimes. And so they're not looking at this as anything other than a property crime, like no harm, no foul, you lost some money, who cares? But it's actually, as we talked about, it is a human crime because you have these gangs and you know, four nationals who are doing all kinds of nefarious other things and are you stealing stuff to support their habit?

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Well, and they've also figured out that they can keep it in misdemeanor level instead of felony level. And so then there's different, you know, that they're not showing up to steal the load arms necessarily, I think, is one of the examples. They're they're just out chest moving you a little bit, and then before you know it, and that's why Scott, I've often heard him say, second that the hair stands up on your back, I want to hear about it, right? That's when you should be reaching out to your professionals that maybe there's like a response team that can go and and try to salvage the load before it actually goes missing forever. So it's it really is such an interesting world that we're moving into where cargo theft is finding success, unfortunately. And I think that that's where we have to get faster, but we certainly have to get smarter how we approach it overall, because otherwise it's going to continue our road. And it's it really is. There's certain points, like you said, there there are certain points that are less apt to have full cargo theft. And ports are actually another good one. There isn't a lot of cargo theft, it happens obviously from the vessel offloading onto the yard.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

We have a Twitch card, right? So you know you gotta have credentials, and you know, and back to the UIIA, we have a driver database which has got all these credentials to make sure they have CDO and all that stuff. So the people are coming in and out of the port. They have they have credentials. It's not strangers in the midst who are like, here I am. You know, they're tracking this stuff. That's right. Exactly.

Joining IANA and Understanding Intermodal

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Well, so let's go to IANA. So we're we're going through your career journey. You we have landed you here. You are the president and CEO of IANA, the Intermodal Association of North America. What made IANA the right next step for you? This was around 2024, I believe, 2025, that you came over. What attracted you to the intramodal side of the industry? What exactly is IANA? Who are the members? And actually, one of the questions that I had when we first started talking generally many years ago, was about how much maritime is actually included in an otherwise inherently, you know, maritime-inclusive association, intramodal association of North America. One thing that I always say is don't forget about maritime, right? And kind of having that feeling from DOT where Maritime sometimes got forgotten, marad sometimes got forgotten. That's how I approach anytime we talk about the total industry, which many other areas feel, you know, don't forget about us. I appreciated that you said that that is an intention of yours to keep Maritime fully involved. So I'll I'll let you speak. What tell me more about IANA and the and the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Sure. So so IANA really represents anyone who cares about a container. And so that can be domestic or international, and it's anyone who touches it. So you've got your ocean carriers, obviously, because we just talked about the TEUs, the ball in the containers that are pile up on top, filled with goodies for all little boys, and so you have your ocean carriers, and then you know what? It goes into the port, the port's moving those containers, and they're using cranes and people and putting them on trucks and putting them on trains. So then you got the truck drivers, the DRA drivers, you got the railroads, because it's got to get from point A to point B. You've got all the IMCs that I talked about who are making this all possible by connecting the move all together. And you've got the the suppliers who make it happen. Those people who make the containers, those people who make, you know, the rail cars, those people who make what have you. And you have your chassis providers and chassis manufacturers. And so the chassis are obviously what the container goes on, whether it's from a truck to a train. So it's all these kind of this network of folk that focus on that container, getting it where it needs to go in the safest, most efficient way possible. And the reason I came here, I guess, was I wasn't seeking to leave TIA. I knew I had a great guy who could take over for me someday, but in my mind it was someday. It wasn't like today. But but they they kept pestering me. You know, I I think part of it is too, it's like if you're a farmer, you just you can't ever stop being a farmer. And they say the same thing about a railroad or you just can't ever stop being a railroad. And so I think it was just like, all right, well, the railroad was such a huge component of this, and it it just felt like kind of being home again. And so it it feels like this is the place for me. What we have to do is, you know, the the intermodal markets here back in 2018 was over was about 8%. It's sunk. This is shocking to you, but not really after everything we've been saying. It's it's shrunk during the years of the pandemic because there was so much truck traffic, right? Everyone like there was so much capacity, and the truck rates were so low, and people were just using truck. It's gone bunk back up again because truck capacity has been shed for a number of different reasons. There are regulatory constraints, which we sort of hinted around, and the price of gas has gone through. Rudest, I have not been able to open the Straits of Hormuz. Lauren, you haven't been able to open this. Unfortunately, I have not been able to yet either. A few attempts, but I know I know you tried. Now we tried. Let's talk to us. But so so people now we're in this intermodal moment. And so again, we need to have like hardest all those entities I just talked about, which is we've got to get ourselves together and bump our market share. Now it's gone up for sure. We have some good trends because again, they're like all the stuff I just talked about, but we want to make sure we sustain that growth. So that's our single-minded focus, which is how do we sustain and grow intermodal? And you know, air, land and sea, right? That's what we're doing, just like your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

That's right. By by land and by sea and by air. That's right. Well, that's wonderful. And and one of the key tenants that Iana has been just, I mean, obviously the leader, the only one on is your work on the UIA and creating this intermodal community of standards for the motor carriers and the equipment providers.

UIIA and Industry Standards

SPEAKER_02 45:09

And how so talk to me very basically about what UIIA is, who does it help, what does it create the standardization for, and and you know how how can it be utilized in the industry?

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Yeah, so so it is an interchange agreement which governs how equipment is moved, whether it's the chassis or the container. And those who who are participants in the UIIA then are governed by those standards. And so it's the chassis provider, it's the ocean carrier, the railroad, and the DRA driver. Those are the folks who are members of UIIA. And so why is it to their benefit to have this agreement? Because everybody functions better when they all have the same understanding of what they can and cannot do, or what their sort of what will happen if they do X, or what will happen if they do Y. And so it's been a remarkably helpful construct that's all facilitated by IANA over the last 30 some odd years. It has been facilitated by IANA and a board of representatives from those groups I just mentioned. And that board makes sure that we're sort of adhering to the tenets of the agreement. Which there's sometimes there are moments in time when there's disputatiousness, and there are moments in time where we're all sort of singing kumbaya. You had mentioned the the Ozra, the Ocean Shipping Reform Act. And certainly that now it's in some legal question as to where what will happen next with that. But you know, there there were some implications to how we use UIIA. We have to follow federal law, right? And so we have to make sure our participants also do that, but we also want to adhere to our agreement and make sure that our agreement is being adhered to. As part of that, our IT guys and gals are so smart, I swear to you, they're they're unbelievable. But they developed this driver database that I mentioned so that the driver database is everybody who is part of the motor carrier population in the Dreyage space with their CDO, their NC number, their insurance, not their insurance information to make sure that these are the people who you know what, you can get a job. If you're a Dre driver and you're operating independently, being part of that list means you've got a bunch of folk who will contact you to get things moved. So that's incredible. But it's also for safety and security's sake, we know who we're dealing with, right? And then we have the same thing where we track chassis, we track where the container is going using street turn technology. We've now done geofencing about 80% of our terminals just to make sure that everybody sort of knows where everything is. And so you asked about Maritimes participation. This is all a benefit to them to know the security of their function. They get some data from us through the ocean carriers. So they have a they benefit from the data that I just mentioned. And so we we they are critical and essential to kind of how UIIA functions.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

And that's wonderful too, because it there really is a move, which is it's funny. It feels like, well, of course, standards have always existed. And of course, the rule book that that all the members that are in this agreement together, of course, of course, there's it wasn't always an of course, right? This is something that was created intentionally with purpose because it really did help in the good times and especially the bad times, right? It creates that rule book of here's the guardrails that we will all adhere to so that at least when things go wild, we're still speaking the same language. We might not like what we're saying, but we're still speaking the same language. And I think that that's something that we're seeing really take off across the supply chain. So I think that we're gonna see it feels like UIIA is really going to work well with kind of all of these standards that are really emerging on the global supply chain movement, you know, track and trace or whatever it is, this information that is seamless, that is reliable, that is the same language. I mean, it's it's just the easiest way to say it. And and the once we start connecting the dots on all of that, imagine the world where we know where our goods are at all times.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

We're all what a novelty. We all understand what we're saying. I mean, that I know that's certainly one of your efforts that you do besides Blabs, you also are working on, which is how can we make sure that the sort of the data is all what we say it is, that we have a similar definition for what we think we're talking about. And I think that's sort of like the next phase is how we can integrate UIIA into these other things.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

That's right. And I think that that's something. So I have often talked about them on this podcast, but the Digital Container Shipping Association is the leader in this for ocean shipping, but but they also have some pieces that connect all the way through, track and trace being one of them. It's not just, you know, the pizza tracker that often comes up, but it kind of is that we have to speak the same language before we can put the pizza tracker on top of it. But we all want the pizza tracker, right? I mean, that's where we, I believe, are going. And so hopefully, hopefully we'll get there sooner rather than later. But imagine that it's a novelty to know where your goods are. And also, I think even just saying where my goods are, well, what do you want to know? Right? Like, where, what do you mean? Where are they? Are are they on Earth? Well, that's not what you're asking, right? What do you want to know? What's the geolocation? What do you, you know, that's so that's part of that speaking the same language is do all of the pieces line up? And that's where UIIA especially helps create that. Well, this is the parameter that we've outlined what you want to know. And we're all going to use that parameter as how we speak to each other so that there's clarity in what we're saying. So when we say, where are my goods?

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Or you know, what it what is my what is the the I don't know, I'm failing to where is the return location, for example, for this chassis or this container? What's a return location? Perfect. Well, we all know what we're doing, what we're talking about. Well, me and the other. Inside the gate, outside the gate, this side, that side. Yeah, here out of cash my Washington commanders support here is a perfect. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Not sponsored yet. Not rack, maybe they have to move goods. As does Taylor Swift, right? Maybe we should turn this into a how we can help Taylor Swift move her her goods for her next era to her for her next wedding. That's right. Or the Rhode Island wedding. She had the New York wedding now. She's got to have the Rhode Island wedding. All right. Well, getting back to IANA, so you have something really exciting coming up this fall, and actually just a few, I won't say it, I'll say a few months, not a few short weeks, but

IANA Intermodal Expo Preview

SPEAKER_02 52:08

the IANA Intermodal Expo is coming together. So it's bringing parts of the freight system that don't always end up in the same room, right? The obvious benefit of IANA, Intermodal Association of North America, but the expo brings everybody together. And I'd love for you to speak to the listeners here. Why should they attend and who should be there, but that may not realize it yet?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah. So, you know, as I mentioned, we have these five categories. We have our railroads, our ocean carrier and marine. So that includes support terminals. We have our DRA drivers, our three PLs, and then our vendors and suppliers. And so they're all represented. So everybody in the intermodal ecosystem, they are all there. And in fact, for example, the railroads have many of their customer meetings just off the floor of the expo hall. So they're coming in and out. And if you're in the intermodal space, you obviously want to get to know everybody in the railroad space because they're kind of a cornerstone of the move. And so having exposure to everybody who's in that space who can make it sense, make it make sense, I think is important. So we talked about how there were now some new folk who have come into intermodal. They hadn't been using it for four or five years. Now they have to because they feel like it's a cost question, an efficiency question, a capacity question, but you may not know anything about intermodal at all. And so, how do you get to know the players in the space, the issues that we're dealing with without being there? And so it's really for, I mean, I couldn't pick a better moment for us to be in for if you are in the intermodal space newly or want to understand it, this is the time and place to go. So we have a track we call our beneficial cargo owner track, the BCOs, which is what we call shippers. And why do we have that? Because they may be new to the space, they may not understand what intermodal is at all. And in fact, we did we have we're in the midst of a three-year PR campaign. We just finished the research component. We have intermodal shippers who were like, Could you explain exactly what intermodal means to us? Like not everybody understands it. And so you really want it to make sense and not just to go through the nitty-gritty details, but just so you can understand, all right, here's my expectation. Why am I using three different modes or two different modes? Because this is the highest, best, and most efficient use to do it. And you're saving money, and and and it's worse than stable, and you can cover long distances with higher volumes, et cetera. So that's why you're using it. If you want to make it work for you, you really have to understand who's involved, who the people are, and what the issues are that they're facing. So, for example, you will be on a panel where we talk about the different kind of volume trends that we're seeing from whether it's an IMC perspective, whether it's carrier perspective, whether it's a maritime perspective. What are we seeing so we can make sense of it? We have a really bright guy, our director of economics, Andrew Seibold, who's taken over for Larry Gross, although Larry will also be on this panel. Larry is retiring sort of. I mean, he's not quite, we don't want him to. So we're we're giving him a really keeping him around. Keep him around. But but he created this intermodal volume index so we can track kind of where we're going and where we've been and make it make sense. This kind of stuff, like if you're in the transportation, if you're in the transportation department for whatever it is, you kind of want to understand, like, how can I tell my guys what to expect? Well, you really need to come here so you can understand it's like if you're in the transportation team at whatever the customer is, and you and you don't have any insights at all, well, how can you make the right choice as to what what carrier to choose, how to move it, whether it's a lane that goes southwest to midwest, what what have you. So that's really the purpose. One other little benefit is so you may have been paying attention, there's this big rail merger that's going on. And so we said, which is it's not going yet, it's still in the regulatory review part, but we have Jim Benham, the Union Pacific CEO, and Katie Farmer, the BNSF CEO, who have diametrically oppositional views about this railroad merger. And they're go both going to be appearing on the same day to talk about it. So I couldn't be more, I couldn't be more excited about that.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

Sounds like a juicy day. Now, this is the hard-hitting news of the intermodal world happening at Expo. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, that that's wonderful. And I think your point on if you just want exposure to this side, you're just really not sure where to start. I mean, a perfect spot to start. Because then you can kind of cafeteria style the agenda where you maybe have some inklings of of interest, hop into a panel here and there just to listen, you're going to be getting all sorts of different perspectives on those stages. But like you're saying, this is also where the nitty-gritty of the industry comes together and actually hashes out contracts. So, much like many of my listeners might know, TPM being in the spring where the ocean carriers and the shippers work together. This is similar to that, where it's the rail and the shippers of the BCOs coming together. And one of the phenomons I think that happened during COVID too was a lot of BCOs and shippers were kind of like, I don't need to know what's happening with the vessel. Let me know when it gets to the port and I can get my stuff. After COVID, they were like, hold on, why am I responsible for $10 million in demurrage? What happened at that dang port that I need to know about? And they started to get a little bit more involved in the process of how that ocean carrier moves, where it goes, what happened. I think similarly, don't wait for the bad thing to happen for you to get informed on how it works. And just like you're saying, the more you know, the better decisions you can make, right? And so coming to this expo is where you'll start to highlight what you don't know, right? Because you don't know what you don't know, obviously. But when you come here and you're like, I've never thought about it that way. Maybe I should learn a little bit more because there might be some value in diversification, or there might be some value in strategizing the movement of the goods. And I think that's really been always the game. But since COVID, people have gotten a lot better at playing the game on strategizing.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

For sure. I think there's a a heck of a lot more savvy around all of it and out of necessity. But what that means is there's going to be higher expectations. And so we've got to make sure, you know, one of the kind of roles that we have to play is if we want to grow this, how can we make sure that we're also meeting and exceeding customer expectations? So, you know, we always talk about the Amazon effect, not yet a sponsor should be the Amazon effect where the visibility is is like an expectation, right? You're gonna you're gonna know where this thing is and you're gonna get it quickly. So if that's an expectation for most people, you know, the shippers are gonna be pretty aligned on that as well. And so, how can we make sure that that's we invest in visibility tools and that we invest in this? It's important to have these customer expectations and and and respond to them. And so that's part of our job, too. We have an IMC workshop, we're calling it the think tank, where we're really gonna strategize as to okay, how can we promote the industry where it's back in the spotlight and and and that's great, but how do we make sure we sustain that? That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Well, and also commodities are gonna back different priorities of how they move, right? So if it's a reefer that's fresh of some sort of perishable good, it might not only need the efficiency, but you know, steady as fast. Not always fast as fast, right? But steady as fast. And so what movement is going to provide the steady where there's going to be fewer interruption. Sometimes that's rail, sometimes that's truck, right? And you start to kind of strategize how it gets there because it's most likely going to like 90% efficiency or whatever, I don't know what the numbers are, but to get to where you need it to go versus on one track versus another. And so this is coming to the expo, you can start to it's front of exposure, you can get exposure, but it's more than just that inter intro level. You can actually get the expertise and the side conversations with the biggest decision makers in the industry. So they will be there. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

That's right. And you know, we've taken a fresh look at it because just as customer expectations have shifted in transportation, they're also shifting in in events and shows. And you really want, you don't want to just go and and you know, have a happy hour and drink seven drinks or whatever. You want to you want to learn, you want to, you want to be exposed to people, you want to network and you want to understand the industry. So we're really trying to have targeted content for that. And and I get it, you know. I Lauren, you and I have been to more shows and you can shake a stick at them. And some of them are worth their salt and some of them are not. And we want to make sure the experience for our participants is is top-notch because honestly, it it makes the industry better if we have the best folk and the best content for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Yeah. I and you're so right. We've seen a reckoning of conferences over the past few years of they're either starting to fully lean in and make it quality content that people want to be there for, or they're starting to see their numbers go down. And I think that the, you know, decide by your ticket. So I I I'm excited for it. This will be my first time coming out to the expo. I've been intending to come for years, so I'm so happy that you're exactly right. This is the year I think that these conversations are always important, but this year feels so much more relevant than than past years. So I appreciate the opportunity to come speak on stage with some wonderful experts. Well for the learning that I can again on stage there. That's right. That's right. Well, before we wrap, I do want to ask one more question. We've kind of moved all throughout, right? You've you've had experience and you've seen firsthand freight systems from rail, government, brokerage, intermodal.

The Future of Intermodal Freight

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Where do you see the industry heading and what should the industry be preparing for now as we start to move into kind of this? We're we're fully in post-COVID, but what is the next thing that you see is at least one of the things that you see is going to be a major intention?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Well, okay, Lauren. So we've talked a lot about how we want to sustain the growth. There's a lot of things that have to happen. And I'm not going to be critical of anybody in my in my system, and I'm not going to posit any views on any rail mergers or anything. What I can say is this there is an intense focus on converting long-hauled truck to rail. And how do we do that? And so, you know, we have uh from the the Union Pacific North and Southern proponents, they're talking about these watershed markets where you can convert to to rail, right? On the BNSF and and others where they they're not proponents, they talk about having these collaborative relationships, which are critical for intermodal success. Whatever it is that is the right strategy, we have got to focus on it. It's not enough to have, I guess we're now over six percent market share. It's it's not enough. Like we've got we can't just rely on, well, we've done it this way for years, let's keep doing it this way. That's not gonna cut it. So, look, I I'm gonna try not to be irritating or a scold, but I do think it's part of like what we've got to do for the future success of the rail industry, for intermodal, for all of us, for the the nation's freight so we're not gridlocked, is really focus on how can we convert that market share. If we have a diminishing population of truck drivers, I'm not gonna get into the truck driver shortage debate, God knows, because people will send you hate letters. But we have a diminishing number who want to go very long distances, right? We can all agree on that. And and you know, there's a retiring population and they're aging and all of that sort of thing. And so if you have fewer who want to go longer distances, well, doesn't that just seem to make sense to have intermodal? But you really have to have investment in that. And you have to use these sort of collaborative tools and technologies and all of that to make sure that we can do it successfully. So, yeah, that's where we're going. God help us, we're gonna get that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Well, and just like any sort of supply chain conversation, investment and intention is really what it comes down to. We, in order for the entire country to be successful as a fully functioning, efficient, quick-moving system for supply chain, we have to look at all parts, not just the one straight in front of us. And so I think that that's a really good point that this is something that requires a just because we've always done it this way, is that the best way, right? Like, is that the strategy moving forward or is it time to adjust? So well, Ann Ranke, president and CEO of the Intermodal Association of North America. I so appreciate you joining us on Blabs by land and by sea today. And thank you so much for your conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

We'll see you in me, Lauren. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to seeing you in a couple months. We'll see you in Long Beach in September. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

I hope you enjoyed that conversation. What a wealth of knowledge Ann is and what a fun person supply chain. We actually slid into a little bit of pop culture references during the chat, as you heard. But before we even began, we were comparing notes on different celebrities who had unfortunately fallen victim to cargo theft in recent years. Celebrities, man, they're just like us. Anne's had one of those careers that has given her a view of transportation from almost every side, right? Rail, federal government, freight brokerage, association leadership, and now the broader intermodal system linking it all together. I always enjoy hearing how people find their way into this industry because most of us didn't have a perfectly mapped-out transportation career at 18 years old, right? We followed interesting work. We learned one part of the system, and then we started to see how all the pieces fit together. I also hope this conversation gave you a clearer picture of IANA. IANA is certainly known for the expo, but the organization does very practical work throughout the year. It helps the industry develop those common systems, shared rules, and workable procedures where the industry needs to operate together. The UIIA is a great example. It may sound technical, but the basic concept is very straightforward. Motor carriers and equipment providers need a consistent way to manage containers and chassis, what requirements apply, and what happens during the equipment interchange. Most cargo owners will never directly interact with the UIIA, perhaps, but they still benefit when those relationships are easier to administer and the container can keep moving. That is why IANA Intermodal Expo is relevant to people beyond what they may think of the traditional intermodal community. If your work touches ocean shipping, ports, rail, trucking, equipment, logistics, cargo, technology law, policy, or supply chain security, you're already part of the same cargo journey. The Intermodal Expo creates an opportunity to meet the people responsible for the next part of that journey and better understand what happens after after the container leaves your immediate line of sight. It brings it all together, right? The Intermodal Association. It's all of it. A big thank you to Ann for joining me and to the whole IANA team for helping make this conversation possible. By Landed by Sea is proud to be a media partner for this year's IANA Intermodal Expo. And I hope you'll join me at the IANA Intermodal Expo September 14th through the 16th at the Long Beach Convention Center. I'm going to be representing the Voice of Maritime. You already know that. I'm going to be on a multimodal panel. I hope to see you there. If you like this episode, be sure to follow subscribe and leave review. Want to go deeper on these topics or bring this kind of insight to your team, visit the Maritimeprofessor.com to explore corporate trainings, tailored briefings, and on-demand webinars, all designed to make complex maritime regulations practical and easy to understand. And if your organization needs help navigate the legal or strategic side of ocean shipping, head over to Squall Strategies, where I help companies, trade associations, and industry leaders understand and strategize the regulatory side of ocean shipping. As always, the podcast for educational purposes only and should not be considered legal advice. If you need an attorney, contact an attorney. So until next time, I'm Lauren Beegant, the Maritime Professor, and you've just listened to By Lange Advice. See you next time.