No Workforce, No Maritime Strength: FMC Comm’r Max Vekich on National Maritime Day

Ships don’t move cargo, people do and when we forget that, every “maritime dominance” plan turns into a slogan. National Maritime Day gives us the perfect excuse to zoom out from vessels and policy memos and look at the real engine of ocean shipping: the workforce that loads, unloads, builds, maintains, sails, and regulates the system.

We sit down with Federal Maritime Commissioner Max Vekich, whose career starts where the job is hardest and least forgiving: the waterfront. He shares what it’s like to grow up in a union port town, how longshore hiring halls actually work, why maritime labor can be feast or famine, and how one tragic safety incident on his very first day leaves a mark that never fades. That lived experience follows him into public service and eventually into the Federal Maritime Commission, bringing a perspective the industry rarely gets to hear inside a regulator’s walls.

Along the way, we also flag timely FMC updates that shape ocean shipping regulations and supply chain resilience, including the National Shipper Advisory Committee (NSAC) and what proposed rulemaking process changes could mean for industry input. Then we widen the lens to the big picture: rebuilding American maritime strength, protecting freedom of navigation, and filling critical maritime jobs across ports, shipyards, and vessels. If you’re curious about maritime careers, you’ll leave with concrete next steps, including TWIC, Coast Guard credentialing, union apprenticeships, and Military to Mariner pathways.

Subscribe, share this with someone who works in shipping, and leave a review. What part of the maritime workforce do you think the U.S. is most at risk of losing next?

C-Suite Perspectives
Elevate how you lead with insight from today’s most influential executives.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

You're listening to By Land and By Sea, powered by the Maritime Professor. Happy National Maritime Day. Did you know it's National Maritime Day? May 27th, 22nd, every year. And for today's episode, I wanted to talk about not only the system that makes up the maritime engine, but more specifically the people behind that engine, the people on the waterfront, the people at sea, the people in the terminals, shipyards, and even the people inside the agencies. Because when we talk about returning to American maritime dominance, we cannot only be talking about ships, ports, and strategy documents. We have to talk about the workforce. So today I'm joined by someone who has lived that from the ground up, Federal Maritime Commissioner Max Beckage. Hi, welcome back to Byland and by C, an attorney breaking down the weekend supply chain, presented by the Maritime Professor. Me. I'm Lauren Beegan, founder of the Maritime Professor, former FMC International Affairs Attorney and founder of Squall Strategies. By Land and by C is your go-to resource for navigating the regulatory side of global ocean shipping. And me? Well, I'm your favorite maritime attorney, aren't I? As always, this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered legal advice. There is no attorney client privilege created by this video or this podcast. If you need an attorney, contact an attorney. So let's get into it because as you know, ocean shipping moves the world. All right. Well, this week is a special episode. Today is National Maritime Day. As I said, happy National Maritime Day. It's observed every year on May 22nd. It goes back to the steamship Savannah, which left Savannah, Georgia, and went across to Liverpool, England on May 22nd, 1819, and became the first steamship to cross the Atlantic. Congress later designated May 22nd as National Maritime Day in 1933. Now, MARAD, the Maritime Administration, describes the day as a time to recognize the maritime industry and the American merchant marine, including the service and sacrifice of merchant mariners during World War II. So, yes, National Maritime Day is about history, but it's also about today. Because as we always talk about, the United States is having one of the most serious maritime conversations that we've had in generations. We are talking about rebuilding American maritime strength. We are talking about ships, shipbuilding ports, cargo, national security, supply chain resilience. And that is the right conversation, but none of it works without people. Ships don't load themselves, terminals don't run themselves, cargo doesn't move itself, the supply chain doesn't function unless there are skilled people doing the work. And that's where today's interview comes in. But before we get into that conversation with Commissioner Vecich, I want to flag two quick FMC things that are worth watching and times of the essence on at least one of them. So I wanted to bring it up right away. So the first is that the FMC is seeking applicants for new members of the National Shipper Advisory Committee, or NSAC. We talk about NSAC periodically. They were doing a lot of great stuff with their meetings that were happening, I believe it was quarterly at least. But this is the National Ship, this is the Shipper Advisory Committee created to give importers and exporters a direct advisory voice to the commission. Now, the National Shipper Advisory Committee is made up of 24 members, and it's 12 representatives of exporters and 12 representatives from importers. Now look, this is only the second charter of this group. And beyond that, this is one of those FMC mechanisms that people really should be paying more attention to. If we want better ocean shipping policy, the commission needs to hear from people actually using the system. I'm going to say that again. The commission has to hear from people actually using the system. Importers, exporters, cargo owners, the people dealing with service reliability, billing documentation, and the real world friction points in ocean transportation. So if you're in that world, watch the National Shipper Advisory Committee. Watch NSAC. This closes, I believe, in just a week. So I believe it's next week on the 28th, May 28th. Check that date for sure, but it is closing quickly. It was only open for two weeks. Look, if you're the right fit, consider putting your name into this. Now, this is just the shipper advisory committee. We are also watching the creation, the possible creation of a ports and terminals advisory committee and an ocean carrier and VOCC advisory committees. Those have not been created yet. As far as I know, I think they were in the reauthorization bill. However, this National Shipper Advisory Committee was created, I believe it was created under ROSRA 22. It exists, it is there. It's had its first charter already, so this will only be the second running of this advisory committee. This is part of the federal advisory committees that often advise many agencies out there. The FMC has finally taken a role in this with the last first charter of the National Shipper Advisory Committee. And now they're on to their second National Shipper Advisory Committee, soliciting the 24 members. Like I said, if you're a right fit, consider putting your name in. Now the second thing I want to bring up about the FMC, they have a proposed rule out on its rulemaking procedures. Now that does not sound exceptionally exciting. It's gonna get more exciting or not. This is also including ex parte communications and informal rulemakings. Look, let me translate that a bit. The commission is looking at how and when people can actually talk to the agencies during rulemaking processes. So the proposal would revise the FMC's rulemaking procedures and consolidate informal rulemaking and rulemaking petition requirements. Okay, look, basically what they're trying to do is they're trying to find ways of capturing some of those conversations that happen. Now, look, ex parte communications, yawn, right? But this is why it's important. The FMC's proposal points to case law and ACUS, which is the American Administrative Council of the United States, I believe. Is that the acronym? Basically, what this is all doing is finding ways of allowing generally permissible and useful conversations in these processes. ACUS made a recommendation saying that blanket prohibition from ex parte communication, so communications with the agency to private parties outside of the otherwise formal rulemaking process, which is usually notes or comments submitted to the agency. ACUS said in 2014 that blanket prohibition is usually not required or advisable, and that early stage communications can actually help agencies gather information, craft better proposals, and build consensus before a notice of proposed rulemaking is issued. Now we already know this. The FMC regulates a system that is operationally complicated. We obviously know that. It's carriers, terminals, ports, rail, trucks, chassis, warehouse, all the parts, importers, exporters, documentation, billing, cargo movement, it's the whole ecosystem. Now, if the agency is going to write smart rules, it needs to understand how those rules will hit the actual system. Now, we've seen the agency do a pretty good job of the advanced notice of proposed rulemaking where they ask questions out to the world asking, what do you think? We're going to probably do a rulemaking on this or that. What do you think? That's where those ANPRMs come into handy. This is kind of right around that world. It's not a big change. This is actually simply an update of something that the FMC probably was supposed to do a while ago. Many other agencies have already made this change, allowing for these ex parte communications. Now, look, good maritime policy needs input from the people who actually understand the system. And that's what I believe the FMC is doing here. So this is just part of a notice of proposed rulemaking that they're going to be changing just how they do the administrative side of its rulemaking procedures. Look, like I said, not overly exciting. But the NSAC is exciting. You should be watching that. And if you have anything to do with imports or exports, consider joining. All right, now let's get back to the people because that's what today's episode is all about. National Maritime Day, we are welcoming Commissioner Vacic. So we recorded this for National Maritime Day earlier this week, but today of this recording going out, it actually also happens to be his birthday. Perfectly fitting. Commissioner Max Vackich's birthday was on National Maritime Day. We talk about his pass from the waterfront to the Federal Maritime Commission, what longshore work taught him along the way, why labor belongs in the maritime strength conversation, and just how we bring more people into maritime careers today. So let's roll this interview. I think you're going to enjoy it. For this National Maritime Day episode, I wanted to bring in someone who understands maritime truly from the ground up. Commissioner Max Beckich serves on the Federal Maritime Commission and was confirmed by the Senate in February of 2022. But before joining the FMC, Commissioner Beckich spent decades in maritime labor. He was a longshoreman, supercargo, and union officer with the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, the ILWU. He served on the Labor Relations Committee for ILWU Local 52 as president of ILWU Local 52, and on the ILWU International Executive Board, Tongue Twister. He also served in the Washington State House of Representatives from 1983 to 1991, representing Washington's 35th legislative district. During that time, he chaired committees focused on agriculture, trade, and economic development and commerce and labor. He also served on the Washington State Maritime Bicentennial Commission and the Governor's Industrial Safety Board. And his education also starts in Washington State. He earned his associate degree from Grace Harbor Community College and his bachelor's degree in political science from the University of Puget Sound. So when people call Commissioner Vecich the labor guy, maybe I'm the only one that does that, Commissioner Vecich is the labor guy at the FMC. There is a real story behind that. He brings the perspective of the waterfront, labor leadership, public service, safety trade, and now federal maritime regulation. And as it turns out, this turned out to be the perfect episode to have Commissioner Vecich on because National Maritime Day is also Commissioner Vecich's birthday. This is truly a celebration. So I mean, meant to be. So today we're going to talk about his path into maritime, what the waterfront taught him, why labor is such an important part of the ocean shipping system, how we get more people into maritime careers today, we gotta do, and this once-in-a-lifetime movement around returning to American maritime dominance. So, Commissioner Vecich, welcome to By Land and by Sea.

[Ad] C-Suite Perspectives

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Thanks

(Cont.) No Workforce, No Maritime Strength: FMC Comm’r Max Vekich on National Maritime Day

SPEAKER_00 10:39

so much, Lauren. Thanks for having me on the show. And uh big fan.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Oh, well, thank you very much. It's so it's so wonderful. I'm surprised we haven't done this yet, but the second best time is now. So I'm so happy that we are having you on the show. On now we're recording this a few days in advance, but may I say early, happy birthday, National Maritime Day, May 22nd.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

You know, I I can't make that up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

That is some skillful planning by your parents. But because they came from the maritime world. So this is this is just wonderful that we were able to make this work on May 22nd for for your birthday episode. Maybe I'll just call it the Max Beckett's birthday episode, also known as Maritime Day.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

I would be I would be good with that.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Perfect. Well, so before we get into the FMC, you know, I I always want to start with my guest on a little bit more about the person. I I really think that this is an opportunity. We talk so much about the FMC and all the issues and topics that are coming up in the agency, but I want to use this time for my listeners to really get to know you a little bit more. So, can you walk me through where did you grow up? What were you thinking about? Did you ever think that maritime is where you might go? Even knowing National Maritime Day, when did you figure that out early? Or, you know, when did you know the maritime was going to become such a major part of your life? You know, how talk me through those early years.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Well, my mom and dad met after World War II. And my dad was uh at Madigan Hospital when he met my mother. He would was on a leave to Aberdeen, Washington, Oakland, Washington, where he was from. And he was in two legcasts because he gotten disabled right after the war and an accident at Fort Lewis. So anyway, where he's stationed. But he was born in Aberdeen and South Aberdeen, which in the Croatian neighborhood. And so he grew up actually speaking Croatian in Aberdeen, Washington, which was not unusual because that part of the town was all Croatian and everybody spoke Croatian. There were Finns next door. There were actually seven or eight nationalities in the town that all had uh ethnic neighborhoods that were all uh they didn't melt right away. So there was that wonderful diversity in uh in our town, and so and it was it was a it was a tough town. And it was a seaport town. It was uh it was a hand, it was a dirty hands town, it was a a timber town, but it was also a seaport. So it was a liberty port per capita. Aberdeen had more churches than any other place per capita in the state of Washington, uh, matched by also they had uh more taverns per capita than any other place in the state of Washington. And also there was probably there was a pretty thriving red light district too. And Aberdeen was known for that. In fact, years later, when I would be in cabs on the east coast, I'd have these old cab drivers say they asked you where I'm from, and I'd say, you know, I'm from Washington. Oh, yeah, I was just down in the Capitol. No, no, no, no. I mean Washington State, and they go, Oh, you're from Washington State. I was there during the war. I was either at the Petertown Naval Shipyard or I was at Fort Lewis. It was a great place. Well, instantly when they said that was a great place, I knew, well, they had had Liberty and they must have made it to Aberdeen, which was a wide open, wide open town during the war. Also, it was a big lot of armaments were made there. My mother and my grandmother both made landmines and hand grenades at Lambs Grace Harbor. So they were rosy riveters, so to speak, but in munitions. And it was it was a center for logging and uh lumber production, uh, but it was also lots of fishing, commercial fishing was big there, so extractive industries. But old-time Washington State, timber, fish, you know, manufacturing to some extent, pulp and paper. You know, that's that was the neighbor, that was what was going on there. Uh and a lot of unionization of jobs, a lot of unions, and it was it was a center for union activity. My dad has was a CIO organizer with a guy named Harry Bridges, who went on to found the International Longshorman Warehouses Union. That was but had initially but started off with the ILA, so which is the East Coast Longshore Union, and now the LW is the West Coast Longshore Union. So we all have the roots of a common mother there in the ILA. And uh just in fact had a chance to uh celebrate Harrod Harold Dagg at his 80th birthday party at his big fundraiser for St. Jude's Hospital, which was a great, great event. So very proud to have attended.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Well, that's great. Well, and and you know, Aberdeen, so Grace Harbor, right? So it's south of Seattle, it's it's kind of along the Pacific coast there. And and it sounds like I didn't realize that there were so many exports that were happening, right? I mean, you're saying wood, wood pulp, you know, fishing, all of that. So a really interesting market, anyways, for for ports and seaports to kind of be a part of, but then having that rich maritime uh militaries perspective as well, that that must have given you such a wealth of information on you know all the different areas that maritime touches that you know you can live by a port, but then to see all the different facets of it as well is is pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

It it really was. And my dad then became a dispatcher for the union, and so that was an elected position. So he for many years, I think 25 years, he was the secretary treasurer dispatcher in local 24 and uh ILWU. And so he basically they weren't big enough for a business agent, that sort of model, but he basically ram roughshod or ramroted 200 200 men. There were no women on the docks in those days, and that's that's changed now. I'd say over 40 percent or over 20 percent, maybe upward to uh high 30s, perhaps, or or mid thirties of women workers on the docks now. But uh you know that that's been the real change. So uh so that was a period of time then then he was there, and I had a chance to spend time at the Union Hall with him. You know, when I often uh he would take me to ships with him. I remember getting uh slices of pumpkin pie uh when I was like 10 years old on uh American ships sailing out of Baltimore. So that was pretty cool. In fact, the first ship I ever worked on was a Calmar ship, which was owned by what's the Calmar, owned by B and O Railroad, taking iron to Bethlehem Steel in Seattle, the Seattle plant, and then coming back to Aberdeen uh empty and loading of lumber to bring back to uh Baltimore, Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

So that was my first experience actually was with uh being on ships and was through my dad. And he had a real love of vessels and and a love of ships. When World War II broke out, he had enlisted and or signed up for the Navy Reserve. He was married with a couple kids at the time. And so they didn't take him right away, but then when they needed manpower, because they were going to invade Japan in 1944, they drafted him into the army. So which is kind of ironic. Uh I had seven uncles, seven uncles who served in World War II, or maybe throw my dad in there, six uncles and my dad. So they all all were veterans of World War II, and so some Navy, some army.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

I was gonna say, were they all army? All all these maritime men going into the army.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

No, but they all no, but it it's funny. I think my dad and his and one of his little brothers and yeah, two of his little brothers ended up in the army and so my three of them ended up in the navy on destroyers, and so anyway, so they uh they gotta see some things, and but we got this strong appreciation of uh of the military and our family, but also all everybody and the family's uh very pro-union. Uh everyone was a union town and really helped raise all these immigrant groups up and uh out of poverty. And and so the normal people immigrant path in my hometown was most of them immigrated before World War I. And they would get their ticket through some sort of agent or contractor and sign up for six months of uh uh more or less indentured servitude. And they get here and they get to the what the United States, and then after they put their time in, they'd quit that that mill and they'd go join a unionized mill. And so that was that was the path because of better pay, better conditions. And so, and not just you know through the war through World War I, past World War I, into the Depression, you know. So that unionization really helped small town Washington, you know, develop a you know, a broader economic base.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Well, so you have all of this rich maritime history all around you. It sounds like you this is the family business. Maritime was the the the family business, being at the ports, being in and around the port world, you know, being being on ships and on vessels. But you found yourself, you found your way over to Grace Harbor Community College. Was that intentionally to try to depart from the maritime? I mean, you could have gone straight to to maritime lawnshore or or you know, workforce, or and then you found your way over to University of Puget Sound for political science. So talk to me about you know what what was appealing about going into political science or or kind of maneuvering those choices instead of just going into the family business directly.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Well, the Vietnam War was going on, and we had a draft then. There was no volunteer army. We got you were you got drafted, and that was the way it was. And I had plenty of folks and neighbors and friends who were drafted and served in Vietnam. And uh some didn't, some decided they'd rather go live in another country. I wasn't too close to those folks, but uh but that was a that was a reality. So in my mind, I thought staying closer to home might be better. Plus I had a great family, you know. My mom and dad were were really amazing people, they have big personalities, and my they together they started the credit a credit union in Aberdeen, and my mom ended up being the head of the campfire girls in Aberdeen, and my dad had been acting in the community in alcohol prevention and uh on the St. Mary's school board later on at uh one of the perial schools that we ended up going to. So anyway, that was so yeah, it was it was it's it's home, it was rich. Um our relatives were there, our ribs were there, and my dad built a house, you know, basically one street over from the neighborhood where he was born. So you know, and he bought all the material from his godmother's son in the hardware store, which was about half a mile away. So, you know, it was solid solid Foundation for the community. And interestingly enough, one of our neighbors, a guy Cobain, and Leland Deneiris, they have they had a grandson who used to drive this Volkswagen minibus, and it had uh license plates on the back that said Nirvana, because that was Kurt Cobain. And so I remember seeing Kurt Cobain as a kid knowing Kurt and as knowing his dad and his mom. And Kurt used to when he was five to six to five to seven to eight years old, he used to walk around over there in the neighbor yard and around our place too, with a transistor radio stuck to the side of his head, you know, and the reception was always horrible. So I don't know how much that influenced him, but it had to have some effect on him, you know. So, you know, hearing uh bad transistor radio reception, but I get a kick out of it. But he was a he was a good kid and uh he played with my my sister and they they played uh like they were in a rock band.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Which is funny, which was funny when they were like six and seven years old. And I think she still has the drumsticks. She gotta be the drummer. So uh I know that was funny.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Do you think any of the songs do you think you might have made a cameo or I didn't realize that? That is so cool. I this the stories that you have are are so incredible. I'm I'm so happy that one came out. I've never heard that one before.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

You know, I'm I I I I I've had an interesting life and I've I I've met some interesting people, and uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Well, you you you helped Kurt Cobain find his careers, huh? That's what I heard now.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

No, well, and uh they you know there's a lot of a lot of talk over the years about you know this, that, the other thing, tough childhood, but I can tell you for certain that his grandparents absolutely worshiped the ground Kurt walked on. Leland and I were and in fact they liked me. I think they liked me better than a couple of the their other kids. And uh so you know, and Leland especially. We were we were always friends, and friends of his became friends of mine. And so and Leland was Leland Cobain had uh gone to Guadalcanal and enlisted in the Marines, but he was like 15 years old and they hadn't caught it. So he had he had a breakdown on Guadalcanal during World War II, which was the worst place to be anyway. And uh when the Marines came when they when he was when they came to see him on the island and do an inspection and see what's going on with him, they realized, oh my god, this kid's a couple years too young. He's not supposed to be here. But he still was a veteran, and he always got the Marines always treated him like and he was one of them. So uh that was kind of fun. That was fun knowing him and and uh that aspect. But uh we had a great street in our in our in our neighborhood on Scott Street, and uh it was mostly Croatians. Leland and Irish were a couple million, Croatians not on the on the street.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

So did uh I want to kind of tie it back to the to the the the political science piece, and it sounds like you were a man of people from from birth. You were always out there talking to the community, working with the community, I mean just being, you know, that's any any kind of good functioning community, right? I mean, you just you were enjoying where you live. Is is that maybe what drew you over to to public service then and and you know, kind of giving back to the community that had given you so much? Well what talk to me about kind of how did you find your way?

SPEAKER_01 25:38

You know, New D they were those people loved FDR. You know, he uh he was on everybody's wall, and including our our wall. And you know, I mean, the New Deal went meant everything, and it was the most democratic precinct, probably in the county was where I was, although the whole that county voted solid democratically until 2016 was the first time they voted for a Republican, and wow, President Trump won the county in 2016. So from 1932 to 2016, uh solid run a democratic victories in the county. So that was the county I was in. They weren't real at various times, you know, depending on the age groups. Uh but but I was I w I went to community college, Grace Harbor. I had charismatic uh poly side teacher, and I was much stronger in history than poly than other things, but I thought, you know, I'd rather try to make history than write it or read or teach about it. And I I I didn't, you know, I I I love my my my coaches. Avery high school had a great athletic program. I was an all-conference football player, and you know, when I I got offered a football scholarship a number of places and ended up at Grace Harbor College. And where I played behind an all-American nose guard. When you play behind an all-American, that doesn't mean you play much in the games. Because the other American gets to play. When you got an all-American, you play the yellow American. So that was fun that I was on uh Grace Harbor choker after being an Aberdeen Bobcat. But uh all my high school years, we were the league champs, and then when I went to Grace Harbor, we uh we won our division there. And in fact, we at the last alumni game, I was MVP of the last alumni game that Aberdeen and Oakland had. They used to have an annual Thanksgiving Day game. Uh however, when you're a nose guard and you're the most valuable player, that doesn't say much about your offense. So uh losing cause. But anyway, I'm proud of that fact that I was the last MVP of a Thanksgiving Day Aberdeen Oakland game, which was the longest rivalry in the state. And the last three were alumni games because they had changed the format of the state playoffs. Which is more than you wanted to hear about that.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

And and you said that there was another another notable name that came from Aberdeen as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Well, well, at Grace Harbor College, of course, is famous for having John Madden having played there. And so John Madden played there. People that I I I knew who knew John Madden and who played there at the same time said John Madden spent most of his time in Max Cigar store, which is uh a tavern in a card room. And he was known as being a really sharp poker player. So which that makes sense. That makes sense. He was a great coach.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

That makes sense. Uh oh, now you're telling all his secrets. Let's get back to maritime. So so you have so you have this maritime kind of just depth within your your family, and you know, you you you have this calling for political service and and from history, and and you even just said that you wanted to make the history instead of just read about it or or learn about it. Now, how did that you you got you came out of college and then and then where did you go next?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Well, before I came out of college, I ran for precinct committeemen at the age of 18. Well, there you go. Perfect. I got elected actually at the age of 18.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Mostly because everybody liked my mom and dad, you know. So, you know, I I was their kid and uh I'm Max Jr. And so, you know, that was uh that was pretty good. The guy I I beat, though, for the job who had had the job for four years, he was a great guy. He was just a great guy, but he was an older, he was not that much older, he was about probably about 10 years older than I was, and and so I always felt a little guilty about that, but he was a loyal supporter always after that, and so and my various moves. So I spent some time that on the uh uh uh as a state as a priest committeeman, and then I elected got elected to the state democratic committee at the age of 22. And so I met I met a lot of interesting folks, and and also met my late, my late wife, Ivy, was from had gone to the same high school, but I was four years older than she was, and so she knew who I was, but we hadn't met and didn't know each other, and although our sisters were tennis partners, and it was at one of those very same Aberdeen Holand football games where she came up and introduced herself to me, and and I was handing out football schedules with uh uh book for Carol Monahan on the schedule. So I was uh people didn't, you know, football schedules were not as easy to get as they are now. You don't have a phone just to whip them up. So uh we had some football schedules made up for the Huskies and the Cougars, and uh which is Washington State and University of Washington football teams, and and then on election day, uh like it was a game, we had to vote for Monahan. And so I was passing these cards out outside the football game because I was the campaign manager the one time we had a chance to to get the most people. And so uh while I was doing that, my uh my my future wife came and introduced herself to me and and I was a goner.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Oh, that's so sweet.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Huge dimples and a twil twinkle in her eye, and uh, you know, she's all the right stuff.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

So anyway. Oh, well, that's cool. That's that's so sweet to hear. So so let's go back to to kind of the progression then. So you you actually uh that's incredible. I didn't realize that you gotten elected to office at the age of 18, and so then you you kind of maneuvered. It's office. I'll count it. Did you have to raise your right hand and do an L?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Well, that was that's office.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Well, I ran and then you know, since I got jumped in early, there was there was a situation where a state senate appointment happened, and the senator, well the same lady I'd helped to get, I had been knocked, I'd been helping at the game, Carol Monaghan. She and she didn't she got beat uh after she got appointed. And so a Republican named JT Quinn took her place and uh knocked her off. And so there I am, I'm a young guy, and I'm I have friends in the Democratic Party, and uh, you know, and and they're and there I I just graduated I ended up graduating from UPS with my degree in poly sci. And um when I came back home, and of course Ivy's there, and I'm thinking, you know, I mean they're trying to people are trying to lure her away to Washington State, you know, and I'm thinking, oh, hell no, that's not gonna happen. I need to get a job. And so uh I went and asked my friends at the county commission who are political allies of mine, and and they said, you know, we don't want you to we don't want you to work in the county. We you we think you'd make a great candidate down the road, and we would like to see you run for legislature when when you're ready. Well, I'd always hoped I could be a legislator. I'd been an intern at the legislature, so I'd work for the local legislators, and uh one of them was had started off the session as a majority leader, but then his his his his great ally, the speaker of the house, Len Sawyer, got dumped in an internal fight, and I gotta be an internalist uh thing. So I gotta see that that internal fight. But anyway, I I made a number of contacts and friends and uh learned a lot. And so that was great. So I was uh, you know, that was that was in the 70s. So I graduated from college in 76, and 1980 I ran for the state senator. And so I was 26 years old. And nobody told me that they were counting on me uh to be the deciding factor and the majority and the minority, and who who was gonna prevail. Wow uh until much later in the race, you know, it's kind of like and so uh we did real well, we did real well, but that year, 1980, a lot happened that year. Ivy also decided we're gonna start our family, and we're gonna start our family during the campaign. So, you know, it's it reminds me of Ginger Rogers, you know. I I I you know, she could uh you know do I think Fred does, but uh backwards on high heels. Well, I Ivy decides she's going to uh you know start our family during the campaign. And so, you know, she carried our son until two weeks uh after the election, and so he was kind of on the on the trail with us. And so uh that was that was great. That was great. So that was fun. But three weeks before that, the election was was held, and uh President Carter had had conceded early. So the polls, I think he conceded at 5 30 in East Coast time. Well, the polls are still up in the West Coast, and so I had had a lot of phone banking done by supporters, by groups, by unions, by teachers. A lot of my teachers showed up and did phone banking for my campaign. And the Washington Education Association folks were uh they all liked me. I had been editor of the high school newspaper, and they were on strike in 1972, and I had walked the picket line with them until they told me to get out of there, kid. You know, this isn't this for the adults, they don't it doesn't help. And so which I thought, well, that's more architect, but uh but anyway, but I was I was on this on the picket line with them in 72, supporting them as they were my teachers, and uh that was when teacher strikes were illegal, but I don't I don't I don't know how they were gonna get any leverage, but you know they they it was it was still the everything was kept in balance, so anyway, but so I had a lot of teachers uh supporters. I had and had gone to the community college, I'd been student by president there, so I knew a lot of folks there. I just run into people in the Democratic Party. So I met a lot of people, and then I had been a casual longshoreman. And anybody who was anybody at some point in time, especially people who were teachers who had been unemployed, and there were a lot of layoffs at Mills, ends up going to the longshore hall to get day labor at some point in time. So I met so many folks doing that, because I was doing that all the time I was a student. And so, you know, I got I worked on a lot of ships, and that's that's really that's really gave me a lot of flexibility too. I could do the politics a little bit, my minor, my minor stuff. I could I was able to run for office later on and and still be and and not have to worry about losing a job because my my job was day labor.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

So explain that just a little bit for the listeners, because I you know we we all kind of end up in our own little silos, and I feel like this is a part of the overall supply chain that is probably less understood. And still uh the these halls are are still how people get their jobs today. So, how does that work, right? You you you sign on, how do you get to join the ILA or the I ILWU? And then once you're in, how do you get your jobs by going to the halls? Can you kind of walk us through that that how it works?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Literally, it used to be a ship was in port. If you were if you if you were uh signed up with the union, and later on you had to sign up through the unemployment office to be eligible, but they would have a list of people, and the lists were of people who had basically worked in the past down there, and the more you showed up, the the higher up you'd work your way up a list. And so, you know, it was just that was the way it was. Yeah, and and there was labor-intensive jobs that required a lot of folks. A lot of the cargo was still hand hand using, hand bucking. Um some places apples, oyster seed, pulp, especially was really intensive, pulp bales, and the vessels were older and harder to load, and required a lot of shoving things into narrow spots and and getting a tight stove. You know, I mean these terms of you know, tight stow that that actually means something. That means getting as much cargo stuffed into a cargo actor as you can. So especially with things like logs, lumber, pulp, paper, you know, that that really was literally what you would do. You'd load these chips for empty boxes, empty metal boxes, and if you want. And so uh, but to get a job, you'd go down to the the hiring hall and you you'd wait around and they'd call your list. There were the regular A registrants who would get their job first. And sometimes they would they would they when they were hired, they were hired for the duration of the ship. The ship used to be in from like used to be in for like a week to two weeks would take to load a ship off. And that that loading time progressively decreased over time, to where by the time I left in 2004, the the log ports, you know, you you could you could load a ship in five days, so uh just one shift to five days, and so or five five shifts. So that was uh things got that faster. Of course, they had gone from old steam winches to you know high-powered cranes. So uh and so that's uh the mechanization and technology continued to increase and improve. So you doesn't happen, the need for demand for people decreased, but the skill level had to go up. So if you wanted more work, you learned how to drive a forklift because there was a need for forklift drivers always, and or you learned how to drive a log stacker. There were log stacker drivers needed. So people that came in off this off the street that knew how to drive forklift or log stacker, you know, they had an edge. And so, and later on, people who got a drive truck or log truck or semis, you know, as we went to use semis more and more insert commodities, they had an edge. And this batch would have would ask, is anybody out there when he had a bunch of people he didn't know? Anybody drive forklift? Those folks come to the window and they get jobs. Anybody drive log stacker, they come to the window. So, but as the more you showed up and you got known there, then you would you would get on a list, they would put you on a list. And so, but if you didn't show up, no harm, no foul. Of course, you didn't get paid, you didn't make any money, you didn't show up. So you want money, you want to get paid, you gotta show up.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

You know, that's interesting too, because I I feel like some of the maritime industry even today has that kind of feast or famine, you know, with with the you either you either get chosen, like I mean, I'm the what comes to mind is repair yards, right? I mean, they they sometimes have a vessel in, but then they might not get work for a long time. And the same, it sounds like that same concept is kind of that that you might be busy for five days, two weeks at a time, and then all of a sudden you might not have a ship for a while.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Feast or famine ought to be the motto of maritime labor.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

It's just the way it is. The way it is.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

And that's right.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Uh I feel sorry for people that marry into the industry, that marry people that are in the industry into the industry that are are are unaware that that's the deal, because uh it's it's a hard, it's a hard thing to get used to. And yeah, that and the uncertainty of when you're gonna work and when you're not gonna work. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, some of that, when you're an individual worker, you know, that's you know, you're you're you're your free agent, you know, and you can be you can be your best friend or you can be your worst enemy, you know. You know, I don't feel like working today. I think I'm gonna be poor next week. I'm not gonna go to work. Or you can think, Jesus, we are overextended. I better get an extra shift in here or there or somewhere, or I better hit the road and go to other ports. And and we had had had a very our travel system got more and more regionalized, and the workforce gotten more nomadic, so I ended up working in Tacoma and Seattle a lot, and they worked our way. And and before NAFTA got enacted, there were Canadian longshoremen who would come down and work in the docks, and we could go to Canada before. Yeah, once NAFTA happened, that stopped.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

That's so interesting. Yeah, because ILWU does have Canadian right Vancouver, I believe, right? They they have uh, yeah. So I you know that's I'm I've I've always seen that connection and wondered, well, they jumped the border there, but that that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Well, they were, yeah. And uh, you know, ILW all alongshore uh workers in British Columbia are ILW members, so they're up there. And so and I know uh lots of there's uh I think Halifax is ILA on the east east coast of Canada.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yeah, oh that's uh yeah, I I I guess I've never thought about it much, but that that makes a lot of sense and and certainly makes sense on how it can all connect. You know, we're we're talking about the maritime workforce here and and you know how unpredictable it can be for that work. But the other thing that whenever maritime workforce and labor comes up, I think that's a piece that should be shouted from the rooftops is how incredibly dangerous this job is. I mean, this is you don't just get like a bruise if you get hit by a container, right? I mean, you you you you don't usually survive those types of any sort of uh any sort of accidents that happen on the yard. And so, you know, you you had been working in the ILWU, you know, at least exposed to it through your your father and and through others in your community, but your first day on the yard as your own, you know, I'm I'm a worker and I'm here to work was was a pretty incredible, significant day for you as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Well, it was you use the word yard, uh, Lauren. I I would say it was a the adjoining dock. I was working on a ship in at one dock, and the adjoining dock, a man was killed that day on my first my first day working. I wasn't on that ship. His name was Drank Rush anyway. Frank Rush had a log dumped, they had a load of logs dumped on him, basically. He was in the hold of a ship, and he was working under a guy who was uh probably inebriated, and the the winch driver was a World War II veteran, and he did a lot of self-medication because he had his legs were full of Japanese shrapnel from World War II. So there's a lot, lot, lots wrong with this story. And I'm sure the the driver's name was Ernie, I'm sure he didn't mean to do it, but at the same time, you know, he he probably was an alcoholic and he wasn't getting the help he needed. So that was uh that was a problem. But uh Frank was a great guy, he was a late to lifelong German and he was 59 years old when he got killed, you know. So and he left a little boy at home. I who uh later became a firefighter and was a really a good a good man and a good citizen and a good human being. So, you know, and that he he he never he was robbed of his dad. And so that's that was the first guy I worked on a job.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

And that's so tough too, because I mean that's it can happen in an instant, whatever the circumstances are, you know, everybody kind of brings their own things to the workforce. I mean, that happens even just in office jobs, but yeah, everybody's bringing their own storyline to the workforce. But the thing is, it's more forgiving in other industries or in other areas, right? But if you are down on the docks, if you are down at the yard, it is less forgiving. That this is an incredibly dangerous job, career path. But I I really think that that's the pace that, you know, as as some of these labor negotiations and and, you know, all the different conversations that we've been hearing, you know, shutdowns and and strikes and and all of these things that are happening, I think that the biggest thing is it's all about safety. You know, it's it's really it comes down to making sure that you can create an environment that is going to make it the most safe that it can be for all the workers out on the yard because that's it. Everybody's a human, everybody brings their sort of thing to it. You know, this was an unfortunate thing that happened, and maybe there were some external factors to it. But on the other hand, there aren't always external factors. Sometimes it's just some sort of error that happens, and it happens just like that. That how does that, I'm sure it's clearly stuck with you. How does that, how has that experience stayed with you throughout your career? Has that made you, you know, you're you so at this point you're blending political science and and public service and actually having achieved this the state house and and you know, actually serving the people, and you're also having this significant experience at the at the dock, you know, happening on your first day there. How has that how did that kind of shape where you took your initiatives and and your your you know issues that you were championing as you were moving through and and trying to change that world that you had said, why don't I change it?

SPEAKER_00 47:13

I don't know that I want to change it. I think I wanted to enhance it.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

I wanted to make things better.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

My my community was Timbertowns, uh, you know, they're you know, they're north, you know, and my part of town probably had a chip on their shoulder, you know, and I I'm kind of was known to probably have a chip on my shoulder. I think I can't I come by that honestly. And so uh, you know, you you you want you want to improve your area. When I was in the legislature, we tried to push things for depressed areas and target industry and and and help out with jobs and employment. I passed a business and job retention bill when I was in office. But really, the things that really make a difference in job creation are education, colleges do wonders. A community college system in Washington States was huge and strong, and I was a product of that and was a proud ally and did what I could for the community college system. And you know, I mean, I think that kept Washington State at times economic problems great at times when it was not a robust national economy. It it really kept Washington State from going you know into the uh into the into the garbage, you know. It it kept us away afloat. And so the strong education system was great. But I also the infrastructure projects, you can't beat them. They just can't beat them. They create jobs. When I was a freshman legislator, Porta Grace Harbor came to me and said, you know, Max, we got this problem. President Reagan's gonna bring this new federalism issue forward. And Senator Henry M. Johnson's had got us money for to lower our to deepen our navigation channel. And there were two harbors on the Pacific Coast in Washington State. There's only there were only two harbors in the United States and Washington State that you know, the American harbors that took that ships came in, Willoka Harbor and Grace Harbor. And the Port of Grace Harbor is telling me, well, they've the Corps of Engineers decided they can't keep two harbors going, they're too expensive. They're only gonna there's only one harbor, so it's gonna be Grace Harbor, Wilpa Bay is gonna be allowed to selt up, and ships aren't gonna come in there. So, but we have our navigation project, we need to take it to 40 40 feet. And we have the money, and Congress has said yes, but now the new administration says they want a local match. Well, the area is hurting, so Max, we need you to get us $25 million for to help with a local match. No state in the country had ever got involved within a dredging project. That's federal and federal government. And time was going on, local governments got sucked into it. But Washington State, I believe, was the first state to donate and have money into that match. But that was that was what I was tasked with, and I accomplished that. It didn't hurt that uh the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee was a guy I drank beer with and played trailer pursuit with, a guy named Dan Grimm, who goes on to become state treasurer later on, and he had been boring ever. But uh nobody knew that, but I knew that. And so um Grim Grimm was gracious and and helpful, and it was the one thing I I really needed to bring home. And because that channel got the match, they were able to deepen that channel, and ships and bigger ships come in there now, and they've been able to build on that. In fact, uh it's become instead of a log exporting port, which they do a little bit, they are the primary uh supplier of soybean meal to the Pacific Rim through AGP, an Omaha-based co-op that is a big deal for AG. And so that's uh they transitioned to that, and there's now huge silos there, there's more docks, and and there's a deeper, a deeper navigation channel. And that happened because of you know that effort we made. But uh but again, I found it was relationships you make. You know, the previous guy I had I had interned for, Bob Charette, he'd always wanted to get a highway bypass around the city so that tourists wouldn't clog the city up. And uh uh when we had these razor clamp tides and because people from everybody everywhere in the world would just descend upon us and they couldn't get across the street. So his big goal was yeah, get it get a highway bypass. Well, no one would let him have a highway bypass because he managed to take people off uh over the course of a session. And so even though he had probably the most power-bringing legislat power-bringing legislature legislator we've had in a long time, they wouldn't let him have a have a highway bypass, or they they would always deny it. So I didn't make that the mistake. I'd seen Bob had alienated people, and I thought, you know, no, Bob not gonna be that guy. I get a chance to hit home run, we're gonna we're gonna do this, and uh we did. And so and we also had uh we had a bunch of local legislators in adjoining districts. Uh after Carter had conceded and I lost that state senate race, they had redistricted. And the Republicans changed the district and divided the county I was in into three different districts. So in the short term, we were able to try to make uh lemonade out of lemons, and so uh there were a group of three districts together. We were able to form a clout, we called it the Coastal Caucus, and uh we got we got some stuff done, and that was one of the big accomplishments we got done.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

And you got the 25 million that that's great, and and which harbor, which which dredging channel was that? Was that into Grace Harbor?

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Grace Harbor. That was Grace Harbor. The one that uh was allowed to silt up was Willowpa Bay. Willowpa Bay is known for its oysters. I mean, you can find Willoppa oysters at the at the Grand Central, Grand Central uh oyster bar, which we just were at last week during the Navy League. My wife thought, you know, Max, you gotta see this place. And that's cool. So, you know, a third of the oysters on there were from Washington State. And I thought, oh, that was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 53:31

Do you know what's something that I learned while I was out west? So I lived in Silverdale for a little bit, and we were like we've talked before, Pacific Northwest, beautiful. I mean, it was just the hardiness of the people being from northern Michigan myself, the fact that I was living in a place that was like, yeah, it's raining, so what? You just put on a jacket and go. Like it was, I just love that. Like the weather is the weather, you just keep moving. But one thing that I learned about the oysters out there is that you can tell by the shell, and I don't know if this is an absolute, but you can tell by the shell, if it's more of a jagged shell, then it's more likely to be a west coast versus if it's more of a smoother shell, it's more likely to be an east coast. I guess it's from the rockiness of the of the kind of soil sediment versus the more sandy soil sediment that's on the east coast. I think they have that right, but that that's what I had learned. And so so far, my my little this that has been testing it has been fairly accurate. But the the the the like I said, the hard shell was West Coast. So I don't know if that's true. Have you found that to be true?

SPEAKER_01 54:31

I I I don't know about that one more.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Okay, all right. Well, let's pull it back. I let's pull it back. That's a little anecdotal.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

There's so many different varieties now, and you know, they don't all start on the West Coast. That I know that the the ones in Olympia, the oysters from Olympia tend to be on the smaller side, and they have more of a metallic taste to it. So that's a that's another indicator. So uh that's good.

SPEAKER_03 54:55

Oh, that that is probably oyster connoisseuring a little bit higher than my well, let's let's bring it back to the FMC now. So so you were doing all of this fantastic stuff out in Washington State, really ingrained in the whole system there. And it wasn't until 2022 that you entered into the Federal Maritime Commission. So you came with all of this experience. You know, when when you were first named as a nominee, I just kept saying, he's a labor guy. This is incredible, this is so good. We really haven't had that labor voice in quite a long time at the Federal Maritime Commission. So, what were some of your priorities coming in? What opportunities did you see to kind of add to the conversation? And and what priorities do you still see championing today? I mean, we're we're moving into this world of, and I'll ask you follow-up questions on this, but the maritime action plan, the return to maritime dominance, you know, 2022 was still, we were still kind of coming out of COVID congestion. There was a lot going on. And then to go from that to now, what what are some of the priorities that you've had during your tenure at FMC?

SPEAKER_01 55:54

DC is interesting because you know, I was done with politics after I lost my legislative seat. And then my my my late wife Ivy got breast cancer. And so then I had this transition to being she'd been the parent, you know, she was the parent. She's a super mom. And you know, she said, You're the provider, I'm gonna take care of the kids. You go make make a living. That was our role model, that was our our business model. So what but when she got sick, you know, all of a sudden, you know, she was the irresistible force, but she's also been political in her own right. And uh we had met a guy named Gary Hart in 84, and he wants to run her for president. She did some advanced work for him, and we he he told her he she should she and I should go to DC after he became got elected, he would be happy to put us to work. And so uh we planted a seed there, you know. And uh of course he didn't make it, and then she and then when she got sick, you know, I had to readjust and I had to take care of my kids because uh and she wasn't gonna die, you know. But there was no way she was gonna die. She was gonna win. We were she we were gonna win, she was gonna survive, she was gonna prevail. Well, she didn't she didn't make it. The grass the cancer was very grassy, she had remission a couple times and bounced back and bounced back and uh luckily I had a great union medical program and it gave her the tools and the weapons to fight back, and she did, and she had the spirit, but at the end of the day, you know, just uh too many complications and you know the doctors were really pleased and were always they were thinking she's gonna be the one, she's gonna be the one that gets through it all. You know, so yeah, that's that's that's so tough. So okay, a couple of years after she passes, uh my union says my union officers uh one of them said to me, Max, look, it's time to payback. I said, What do you mean payback? Payback. You know, the union took care of you and your family. When I was saying I mean it hit me really when I was at a low point. So don't you think it's time you did something for the union? I said, So you know, I do it. I was also saying I pay my dues, I show up for work, uh you know, go to meetings, you know. I you know, times when you guys have have causes, you know, I make phone calls to politicians that I used to serve with, you know. And in fact, that was a funny thing. When I was out of office, the people that I had worked in had been in office with, they would still call me up and they'd ask my opinion on stuff. Of course, why not? My advice cost them nothing. And I was already I you know, they already they already knew who I was. I was already trusted, so you know, I was I'm I'm I was an easy resource. So Gary Locke, uh uh Maria Campbell, Patty Murray, Jay Insley, you know, those were all all friends. Jim McDermott, those were all friends. Diddy Heck. Danny Heck was insufferable. He was a congressman, he's now Lieutenant Governor, but uh, you know, he'd been out of office for a number of years. And you know, he if you heard somebody from the union come up, he would call them and say, Hey, uh, hey, how come Max Vecchish isn't coming out of here? I want to see Max. Send the Max in. You know, just so I got drafted into to to doing that and did that. So back anyway, Ivy passes away, and they uh the union, the local business agent at the union says, look, it's time to pay back. And so we need you to step up and we need you to run for president local. And you know, I'm not a labor pol I'm not a labor politician. You know, I was in politics, I'm not a labor politician. That's a whole different thing. That's a different lane. I'd had it, I had a cousin who had been the international vice president and had run for president of the ILWU, but he he was unsuccessful, he got beaten by an LA guy, yeah, who then got beat in turn by a Bay Area guy. But so he had that lane, and I was a big supporter of his, but no, that's not my lane, I don't want to do it. And but the guilt tripped me into doing it. And so I became president. I was president during the 2000 negotiations. The union got locked out in 2002. I was president of my local during that period of time. There was no need to lock us out. In the 50 years I served, I worked on the docks, I was never on strike. So, you know, this talk about ILW's been on strike here and there. Between 72 and 2022, there was no strike. There was the last strike ended in 1972 before I started. So that was the last strike there. Now, the ILA's had a strike more recently, and uh, you know, but it was a very short strike. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

Well, and and you know, it it was interesting too. Coming out of COVID, you know, I I saw it. I had been working at the Port of Boston and and it's an operating port. And so, you know, you you when when everybody got sent home, and I say everybody, a lot of people didn't. There was essential employees, including a lot of the labor workforce that wasn't able to get sent home. And so, you know, we we saw this through a lot of different labor categories after when the contracts were up for negotiation at the next opportunity. There was a lot of people are are not gonna soon forget that when everybody came back to work, there was still an entire workforce that never left and always stayed. And, you know, it was scary for a couple of weeks slash months there. So it was it was a very difficult time. And I just kept saying, I think everybody just wants a good thank you. I mean, more than that, but you know, I think it kind of came down to I teach organizational behavior. And one of the things I just kept saying to my students was I think that everybody just deserves a big thank you here. And and there were some categories that certainly were thanked, and others, especially Maritime, right? I mean, we were Maritime was forgotten off the essential employees federal list for for a few weeks and months before it was realized.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

And that's where the FMC came back on my radar. And Commissioner Mafei and Bensell wrote a letter about longshore workers should be considered essential workers because we were denied and we weren't considered essential workers. And they they they they put a letter out saying, Oh, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it. So we had all the supply chain problems and all the rest, and we're not we're not essential workers. And you know, I I lost uh my my my final localizing, I think we had 100-125 members. I know five of them for a fact died from COVID, and probably there were another five that died undiagnosed, but probably COVID-related. You know, that's a pretty big chunk. Pretty big chunk. And so uh there are a lot of protocols that Pacific Maritime Association took later, but it helped, it helped getting declared an essential workforce and getting the priority, uh getting access to supplies and things like that. So uh, but that didn't happen overnight, and that it took a little bit of uh of push. And uh I sort of thought, you know, the Federal Maritime Commission got in the game. Well, that's good, that's good. Maybe I should maybe I should think about that someday.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Well, and and like I said, I'm I'm glad that there is a labor voice that, you know, in whatever varying degree, but you were leadership of labor, you worked and you went and you you were in the halls. I mean, you you know it. I mean, you you came from that world. And so I love that there is that that moment or that that part of the conversation being added to it because labor needs to be part of all conversations because we need, you know, it's it's a crucial element to a fully functioning and fully returning maritime, you know, operating system. And so that leads me into the the world that we're in today, which is an incredible once-in-a-lifetime, exciting moment for all of Maritime. And it it, you know, it took this leader to get us there, but it feels like, and I think I've heard you say this before, that it's a nonpartisan issue, but this is an opportunity of a lifetime to really find a way forward for Maritime to return. You know, I was speaking with Matt Leach, CEO of Ports America a few weeks ago, and he had mentioned, you know, he was part of Sea Land when they got sold off in 1990, 2000. And it struck me, and it was so wild to me, because even having done all of this work at the FMC and all this ocean shipment, you know, international ocean movements, I never realized that Sea Land was not only the number one ocean carrier in the world, US-based, but it was international, it was above all, but it was only 26 years ago that it went away. And so what does this returning to maritime dominance mean? It to me, it almost felt like it was 60, 70 years ago that we were maritime dominant. No, we were maritime dominant in ocean shipping just 26 years ago. So, what does this mean to you now that we are on this path with the administration leading us of returning to maritime dominance here?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Well, you're right, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, although, you know, in my lifetime we we were there before. So now it was a mistake. It was a big mistake, and you know, I think capital thought they they're gonna go on the cheap route. And when does that ever pay off? You know, it doesn't seem it doesn't seem you know bargain-based, but you're gonna get you're gonna get bargain-based results. And so long term, short term you can do that, but long term there's a cost to pay. So I think the resurgence, I I think it's uh been a great thing for the this administration to engage in this issue. And I think it's been probably the best thing I've seen this in this administration do. And fair full disclosure though, you know, I am a Democrat appointee from the Biden administration on this on this commission. And we're by we're uh both Democrats and Republicans on the commission. So but uh Mitch McConnell said uh he had referred to maritime issues as bipartisan. But I my experience On this commission, it's been nonpartisan. We don't see things as parties when it comes to maritime. We see things as maritime. And that's that's how we've been working here. We have a new chairman, Laura De Villa, who's uh brought some good energy. I I she joins Dan Mafey and Rebecca Dye, who are veteran commissioners, have been around, uh both former congressional staffers. You know, they they have a lot of talent and they they've a lot of practical experience. So we see the world similarly. I think my office has been the most involved with the map because we were able to get involved early on and provide some of the uh ideas about um about how you would build this. I mean, the Senator Kelly has a Ships Act thing he's been working on, and there have been Republican congressmen doing various things along this John Keramendi, Dusty Miller, remainers of the Ocean Shipping Reform Act previously, which really showed this possible to get legislation done and to make a difference, and that was to solve the supply chain problems from COVID. And a lot has happened, a lot of reforms have happened. The agency has been deeply involved in rulemaking to make it more fair for American farmers, to make it more fair for American manufacturers and American exporters, and all those things have been have happened now and are in place. And the courts have all validated and confirmed that the FMC had the power to do the rules. Yeah, that's a problem. When you got a big problem, you need legislation. It takes two or three years to get things enacted to fix the problem. I think you don't see the you see an improvement in customer service by the foreign carriers, which is really who the FMC regulates. Mostly we regulate the foreign companies, the big guys, the ones who own the ships. That's who we regulate. And we try to make sure that they don't screw the American shippers. I don't know if I can say that, but I just said it. So anyway, and shippers, you know, another thing, Lauren, is funny about the waterfront. You know this because we are really weird when it comes to naming things, calling things. I mean, some ports we'll call the same thing, two or three different things, you know. And it depends, may have depend on when they were developed, when they were, you know, you know, the ethnic groups that came in or not, you know, and so it's uh it's it's crazy. And so, like who is a shipper? Who's a carrier? Well, the carrier are the guys who own the ships. That's not the shippers. The shippers are people that put the stuff in the cargo in the ships, kinda. But that could be a steamador, or that could be a longshoreman, you know, those are all and a longshoreman can be a steamador, but a steamador can also be an employer who employs longshoremen, you know, and anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

So uh that was an initiative that you had was creating a glossary, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

You were you were you were endeavoring to try to create some not Carl Bensel, Carl Bensel commissioner, now had a nowy, now uh North American waterfront employers, that you know the unionized employers together, and and that's a great, great place for Carl. But Carl developed a glossary and in working on data, and that was I I'm not sure that it was a Rosetta Stone for those people that know what the Rosetta Stone is.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:26

But yeah, his his MTDI effort, right? The maritime transportation data initiative, which which you you yeah, you you were supportive of.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

But I also told him, Carl, this is the Gordian knot, you know. This is the Gordian knot. You're trying to cut the Gordian, you know. I mean, you know, uh God bless you, my friend, but it's it's tough. And and the people that tell you they like it, you know, one minute will be the same people that tell you they hate it the next minute. I mean, anyway, but yeah, you got glossary done, and so I think that was a big victory. I I had proposed a more minor version of that internally in the ILW one time.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:06

That's what I was remembering. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

I had suggested we all agree on a glossary of waterfront terms for the West Coast. And this the caucus was made up of 100 map delegates from around the up and down the coast from San Diego to Bellingham. So all the West Coast and you guys lunch are part of this thing, and it's about 100 people. Boy, oh boy, I I am surprised it got out of there alive. They were so ticking to me for that, bringing that up and saying that. And you know, some sacred cows are sacred cows and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

Well, well, it is a good idea. And your point being, you know, some of this was developed just over years and years and years of somebody calling it something, right? Even the word longshoreman, right? It was a longshoreman, like they were going along the shore. I mean, that's you know, some of these terms in Maritime are are, I mean, as old as time itself. I mean, maritime has been one of the the most sustaining industries in the history of of humankind. So I I think you're right. I think that there could be some streamlining of of terms and and use cases there. And there's certainly some efforts that are that are ongoing there. Carly, Commissioner Carl Bensel, when he was doing his MTDI, was really digging into some of those difficult topics and right at the time of COVID congestion, really. I mean, so he was kind of right in the the heat of all of it, trying to figure out what we needed a little bit more, you know, standardization really is kind of what it comes down to, or some sort of of continuity where we're all speaking the same language. And so I do recall he had pointed to, and this is a group that I talk about sometimes on the show, but the Digital Container Shipping Association and some of the standards that they've been working on to try to help exactly that streamline so everybody's speaking the same language so that you can create all your different platforms on top of it, but ultimately we're all starting with the same language here. So point well taken. But you know, I I want to kind of come back to that maritime dominance piece and or or at least just kind of this maritime action plan.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

No, let's it's important. It's freedom of navigation is vital to our world. We have this global economy. Global economy is only created because we have freedom of navigation. The only reason we had freedom of navigation is because we had fought wars, we had big navies that backed it up, we had the British, had the Royal Navy, of course, they had an empire. You know, well, America supplanted the British after World War II, and uh we weren't hot on having an empire. We were hot about having markets. So we went to more of a free market system and free trade system, but you can't do that if some countries are saying, no, you can't sail in our waters. No, you're for you're prohibited from being here, you're prohibited from being there, no, we have an exclusion zone. No, you've come within, you know, we have forts, we're gonna sell your ships, you know, we have missiles, we're gonna bomb you. You know, the whole our our whole global economy and and model, and it I don't I think it's irreversible to try to why would you want to destroy that? Because it's worked so well in so many ways. I mean, we uh have been too keen to offshore jobs from the United States and too too keen to send good-paying jobs elsewhere. So, you know, there should have been better thought and better sense and uh better policies, for that matter. But okay, what do we do now? Well, we gotta protect freedom of navigation. And I mean I get lots of people concerned let me know at the FMC that they're concerned about this. And this is what keeps them awake at night. And so you know, Straight Arm Moose has brought up a lot of this. Before that, the Suez and the Hoodis also, but even before that, Somali pirates, pirates in Malacca Straits. You know, piracy is a it is a big deal, piracy in the Gulf of Guinea. There they're there. Those things were already in existence. But we need to be careful and uh we need to be sure that we don't throw away the foundation uh tenant of uh freedom of seas and freedom of navigation. That's uh really vital.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:30

And and you know, I mean that we're we're speaking of the freedom of maybe strong mariners, we need jobs.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

Hey, with AI making it so tough for people to get even interviews, I mean go to we got lots of maritime jobs we need filled by good people. And you know, they're it's there and they're good paying jobs, but boy, we need them, we need them. Maritime administration is beating it, beating the gong over this. Our agency would like to probably talk more about that. This comes up a lot. This comes up a lot everywhere, every forum. People ask questions about how to get more mariners. And when they use the term mariners, they're really talking about the the overall industry. Yeah, everybody. How do we get more people involved in that? That's right. And you know, I think I think there's a will, and I think this is the time. And it ties right in with we want to build more ships, need more shipyards. The administration's done a, I think, a good job of rolling things out slowly, but uh staking some ground out. Uh ports in the cut across the country are talking about getting back into the shipyard business. My old legislative district had a shipyard in it, a naval shipyard, Punjab Naval Shipyard, still there. There's still a few naval shipyards around that, you know, I'm not so sure they can't be reconverted back to building ships if they need to be. Some are are doing other things like scrapping ships more or things like that. So, like uh brow can like or was scrapping submarines for a while. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:06

But activity at a shipyard is still learning, right? I mean, it's it's still the the employees that are employed, but then it's also the training of the next generation of shipbuilders and shipworkers. I mean, even just being, as as you well know, just being around it is is enough that you get education on how it all works. And so having whatever the shipyards are doing, having them working, right? That's the biggest thing. We just got to have them working so that way we can pass along some of that generational information so that even if we have new tech, that's fine. We also need people to understand the old tech of shipbuilding. And it's you know, that that that's kind of all over. But we we we certainly need uh just a robust maritime workforce, and I think exposure and opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:49

And we probably need uh, you know, to some extent we need a steel industry. That was all part of the deal. You know, and we need aluminum to some extent. Part of the deal, you know, we need component parts for the ships, you know. That's right. But we need a labor force that can build them, we need a labor force that can run them, and so and we need a labor force that can uh load them and unload them. So that's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:11

Well, this episode this episode was all about National Maritime Day, and and you know, part of National Maritime Day is commitment to service. And so one thing that we've often talked about in this show is that there's a a program called Military to Mariner, which is the ability of military members to use some of their sea time to actually transition into getting their captain's license or or getting some sort of merchant mariner credential that can then be actually used for commercial purposes. I've also heard, and and I think you explained this to me, that the IOA and ILWU, ILWU specifically, actually sometimes can give credit for military service. So, you know, I think that these are two workforces, military members and maritime workforces who come at the job with with gumption and with with depth of of character and and a high level of you know workmanship and and just intention to do it the right way. So speak a little bit about that. The the there's uh a military service credit that you can get.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

In the ILW, when I when I started out, there was the greatest generation were still on the docks, and those guys, uh they really knew how to work hard and work smart, and uh and a lot of times working smart was easier, so you want to pay attention. And even when uh when you you didn't seem like you were learning, you're still learning by by by doing it with them and uh and then smacking you on the side of the head and telling you, no, that's not the way you do that. And uh so that was uh you know, that's good. But um there was when I started in the 70s, there was a you know, the the military was all we still the draft, and so that that got phased out, you know, and we moved to an all-volunteer military that my union started to change too. A lot, of course, there were a lot of AM veterans by this point in time had come back, and many of them had not had been drafted while they were in the union and had to leave their jobs and go serve. And so when they came back, uh they uh you know they started petitioning for uh credit for military service. And so that evolved, and ultimately there were more conflicts. Of course, the draft went away. But uh but they uh now in the aisle to do the west coast stuff, so west coast longshore only, they get credit for their military service, and so as in credit as in uh industry years towards pension accrual and vacation accrual and things like that. So you know that's quite a thing. That's quite that's that's quite a great deal. But it was a long, slow process, and but they finally got there, and uh I think that uh all industries ought to be that there ought to be uh credit for your service in the military or or some credit, partial credit, something, but it can't be for nothing, you know. I mean, you're serving your country and we're all benefiting from that. So let's uh let's uh all work with that and encourage it.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:16

That's great, and that's wonderful to hear. Final question of the day. What advice would you give to someone just starting out that's interested in coming into the maritime industry?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

What go get a Twit card?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:31

Transportation worker identification credential, the Twit card.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

Yeah, which I hated, but get one, just do it. Go get it, put the money out there, get the Twit card. That gets you in the door, that makes you serious. And so, and then you know look on the look on the Coast Guard website, other websites about how you you get mariner licensing. Think about going to sea, think about you know, SIU, SUP, IBU, M E B A, Mastermates and Pilots. There's a lot of great maritime unions, and there's a lot of those that have entry-level jobs and and and apprenticeships. So those are those are great programs. And once you're in the family, you're in the family.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:21

That's right. Yeah, and and what great advice too. You can always come ashore later, but but you know, just if you have the opportunity to go to go out to sea, take it. You can always go back later, right? You you can just get it, get it going. Like you said, once you're in the family, you're in the family.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

That's right. My I I my plan was gonna be, you know, I was gonna get the my my long shore in, and then I was gonna go be uh adventurous, and then I was gonna go try to become a sailor. But uh luck didn't work out that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:50

Well, you're I think your life was worked out just fine. I I commend you for your service at the FMC, your service through the years serving your state of Washington State, and and all of your service at the ILWU. Thank you so much, Commissioner Beckett, for joining me today on your birthday, even though we are recording it early. Happy birthday, happy National Maritime Day. Thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:13

Well, thanks, Lauren, and uh good luck with the podcast and uh go USA.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:19

Go USA. There it is. All right. Well, thank you again, and and great to see you.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:25

Bye-bye. All right. Well, I hope you like that conversation. It really brings National Maritime Day back to the people, right? Obviously, maritime is about the ships, it's about the cargo, ports, terminals, shipyard, national security. It's about all of that. It's also about the people who make the system work. And that is one of the reasons I like asking my guests some personal questions too. I want to know a little bit more about them. Yes, the subject matter is important, the policy is important, but I want you to get to know the policymaker, the decision maker, the person behind the title. Because these decisions aren't just made by abstract agencies floating out there. They're made by people, right? People with careers, people who have had experiences, they have priorities, blind spots, lessons learned, and stories that shape how they see the world. And when I bring my guests on, that's where I hope you are able to understand the person behind the title a little bit more. I hope you enjoy that approach because I think it makes the policy conversation more useful. When you understand where someone's coming from, you can better understand how they might think about the issues in front of them. So when we talk to return to American Maritime Dominance, we can not only talk about the assets, we have to talk about the people who operate them, who build them, who maintain them, who regulate them, and who keeps the cargo moving through them. And we also have to talk about the systems, right? Workforce safety training, and also the advisory committees that bring market experience into the room and the regulatory process that let agencies learn how the system really works before rules harden into final form. But look, the core point here is simple maritime strength is not one thing. Of course it's not. It's the ecosystem, the people, the ships, the cargo, the ports, the policy, and the practical systems working together. That's how we're going to move from maritime nostalgia to maritime momentum. So let's keep it going. If you like this episode, be sure to follow, subscribe, and leave a review. Want to go deeper on these topics or bring this kind of insight to your team, visit the maritimeprofessor.com to explore corporate trainings, tailor briefings, and on-demand webinars, all designed to make complex maritime regulations practical and easy to understand. And if your organization needs help navigating the legal or strategic side of ocean shipping regulations, head over to Squall Strategies. That's where I provide consulting services, regulatory guidance, and policy support for clients. As always, this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered legal advice. If you need an attorney, contact an attorney. So until next time, I'm Lauren Beegan, the Maritime Professor, and you've just listened to By Land and By C. See you next time.