Ports, Policy, and People: A Conversation with Carl Bentzel (NAWE)

If you’ve ever wondered how “90% of everything” actually reaches your doorstep, this conversation pulls back the curtain. I’m joined by Carl Bentzel—former FMC Commissioner and now Executive Director of the National Association of Waterfront Employers (NAWE)—to explain what terminal operators really do, why they’re the hub of the entire logistics ecosystem, and where U.S. ports must evolve to stay competitive without breaking the dance between ship, rail, truck, and warehouse.

🎧 Expanded Description

Carl Bentzel has seen maritime from every angle: Capitol Hill, the FMC, and now as the leader of NAWE, representing the employers who keep U.S. terminals running. In this episode, he pulls no punches in explaining why terminals matter more than most people realize—and how policy, data, and labor all intersect at the dock.

Carl traces key lessons from the pandemic crunch: transportation is cheap when it’s on time, but delays explode costs and risks across industries—from respirators to water treatment chemicals. We unpack how containerization and on-dock rail transformed throughput, and why today’s constraints are often hidden upstream (blank sailings, slow rail velocity) or downstream (chassis availability, limited warehouse hours).

We dig into the push to rebuild a U.S. maritime industrial base amid heavy Chinese dominance in containers and ship-to-shore cranes, making the case for realistic transition periods, waivers, and funding so terminals can modernize without service shocks. We also tackle cross-border competition: how uneven penalties or taxes can nudge cargo toward Canada or Mexico, and what policy parity should look like.

Data and labor take center stage too. The FMC’s Maritime Transportation Data Initiative revealed a simple truth: technology fails without timely, standardized operational data. We highlight practical fixes—DCSA-aligned standards, real-time ETAs, transparent gate schedules—that improve planning for everyone. And we talk people: safety, training, and adopting productivity-enhancing equipment through collaboration with longshore labor.

Looking ahead, Carl lays out a pragmatic roadmap—dedicated infrastructure funding, decarbonization plans matched to cost and timelines, and tighter coordination across carriers, railroads, truckers, and warehouses—to keep the hub spinning.

⚓ If you care about supply chain resilience, port competitiveness, and how policy choices ripple into prices and jobs, this one’s for you.

🎧 Ports, Policy, and People: A Conversation with Carl Bentzel (NAWE)
👉 Listen now: www.TheMaritimeProfessor.com/podcast

🙏 Special thanks again to NAWE for supporting this episode of By Land and By Sea.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet NAWE and Carl Bentzel
• 3:40 What Terminal Operators Actually Do
• 9:10 Why Lead NAWE Now
• 13:20 Pandemic Lessons and OSRA-22
• 17:45 The Intermodal Revolution Explained
• 23:00 Rail, Trucks, Chassis: The Hidden Constraints
• 27:50 Watching Rail Mergers and Market Structure
• 31:20 Building a Domestic Maritime Industrial Base
• 37:10 Runway for Cranes, Containers, and Costs
• 42:30 Growth, Footprint Limits, and Decarbonization
• 47:30 Everyday Dependence on Ocean Shipping
• 53:20 Data Gaps and the MTDI Standards

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Today's guest leads an organization that touches the very heart of how U.S. ports work. The National Association of Waterfront Employees, NAWI, represents America's marine terminal operators and stabors. These are the companies responsible for moving cargo on and off ships, keeping containers flowing through ports, and providing thousands of waterfront jobs in coastal communities. And at a time when U.S. ports face pressure to modernize, stay competitive globally, and adapt to new challenges, NAUI is right at the center of those conversations. Leading Nowie now is someone you'll recognize from his time of the Federal Maritime Commission. Carl Bensell was appointed FMC Commissioner in 2019 and served through 2024, helping the agency navigate the pandemic era supply chain crisis. Before that, he spent more than a decade on Capitol Hill with both the House Merchant Marine and Fisheries Committee and the Senate Commerce Committee working on major maritime laws like the Oceanship Reform Act of 1998, ASRA number one, and the Maritime Transportation Security Act after 9-11. And at the FMC, he spearheaded the Maritime Transportation Data Initiative, or MTDI, to improve supply chain data transparency. Now Carl is bringing all of that experience into his new role as executive director of NAWI. And before we dive in, a big thank you to NAWI for supporting today's episode of By Land and By Sea. So, Carl, welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18

Hello, Lauren. It's great to see you again. It's uh always been a pleasure working with you on issues in Washington, D.C. and talking about them on your podcast. So I enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29

Well, thanks so much for being back here with us. We we always enjoy the conversation. So before we get started, let's start with the basics, right? I always like to make sure that our listeners are all on the same page. So for those who may not know Nowie, who are your members? What do they do? Why are waterfront employers so essential to the supply chain? Kind of take us through the organization.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Sure. Our organization is a really important industry. I think we're probably undervalued and under missappreciated, but we're vitally important to the economic stability of our nation and our welfare. We're the the people that work and man and operate terminals at ports. So we are the port authority is for the most part, while there are ports that operate a landlord, and we have terminals with long-term leases to operate and man the facilities and transfer cargo into the interior. So our members handle over 90% of our containerized cargoes that come into the country. So this the nation's supply chain, essentially. Probably over a majority of the brake bulk cargo that comes in, so some of the uh larger uh commodities, and almost all of the passengers that go out on cruise ships are uh staffed by our terminals. So really a critically important industry to our nation. Uh during the pandemic, we were working on overdrive, but if we hadn't been working, it's my view that the economy would have uh come to a standstill. So a very important industry, sometimes out of the limelight, because it's refined to the big port uh complexes through through through the United States. We work closely with our port authorities and with uh trucking lines, trucking comp uh trucking companies and railroads and BCOs, and of course our customers, the steamship lines.

SPEAKER_01: 3:23

That's right. You know, and one thing that I think people don't necessarily understand about ports is there really are kind of two different kinds of ports in one regard, operating ports and landlord ports. And so, right, when you talk about the terminals, that's usually when you're talking about the landlord ports, where it might be the city or the state who is owns the the port itself, but then it's the terminal who is operating and who's moving the the goods actually and actually the tenant at that port.

SPEAKER_00: 3:51

Yeah, no, no, it's uh people will sort of amalgamate them. For the most part, most of the uh terminal operations are managed by private sector companies. Uh Maui also represents the operating ports. Uh so the ports of Georgia Ports Authority, Houston, uh, Virginia were are where we proudly represent their interests. So we try to focus on operational issues related to any movement of cargo through ports. And the the port authorities that that are not operating ports we work closely with because they're working on making sure the channels are deep enough and the surrounding infrastructures adequate. But we're on the business of moving cargo through our ports as a private sector entity or an operating port for the most part. And so we have uh independent, purely independent terminals owned in the United States. We have uh steamship line companies that have uh terminal operations, and we have uh operating port authorities in our uh in our association. We also uh are uh represent the uh operating associations that manage the contracts, the employment contracts, and uh and work on safety issues through our sister association, the National Safety, uh Maritime Safety Association. So we pretty much cover anything that has to do with how you move cargo through ports.

SPEAKER_01: 5:12

That's great. What a what a fantastic association. So you yourself, you've been a regulator, obviously working at the FMC, you've been a Capitol Hill staffer, and now you're stepping back into an advocacy role. So, what made you want to lead Nowie at this moment? Why was this the time and and why did Nowie bring you in? Why was this the next step for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:31

Well, I had uh you missed one step in the in the in the lead up. Actually, after I left Capitol Hill, I became an advocate, private sector advocate, a lobbyist, and uh represented Nowie as their their person on Capitol Hill for a number of years before I went uh back to the uh Federal Maritime Commission.

SPEAKER_01: 5:50

Oh, I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

Yeah, yeah. So I was I was very familiar with what they were doing and working on. Uh I really knew the value of the industry. Uh I I truly believe that they're undervalued. And so I saw this as a great opportunity to take advantage after one tenure as a commissioner at the FMC of the pandemic, rising acknowledgement of the importance of maritime shipping as an economic driver in our nation, and uh and thought that there was uh opportunity for growth and expansion. Uh and and I'd like to position this association as the preeminent voice on maritime policy in Washington.

SPEAKER_01: 6:35

You know, and that's such an important point, saying that prior to the pandemic, we really didn't have like society understanding. I mean, certainly that's the biggest thing, right? People don't understand that 90% of everything moves by ocean transit, right? That's everything we touch, eat, consume, everything around you. But during the pandemic itself, actually, maritime workforce wasn't even included as the essential employee listing. That was quickly corrected, but not fast enough for how essential maritime workforce and the maritime system was to how we were getting our PPE.

SPEAKER_00: 7:07

The US government passed legislation to help the transit and aviation industries during the pandemic that included$120 billion to pay people who essentially were out of business during the pandemic. And so they went home for two years. And and that was because we couldn't do air travel and we couldn't go to work and we were working from home. At that same time, uh the uh the uh industry uh maritime industry was at all-time levels of of uh of cargo movement. And so it really was uh one of these uh examples of uh what truly is essential. And so so the fact was that that same in that same legislation, I think they gave four million dollars to the maritime administration for certain functions, uh, but the maritime industry was uh neglected and in fact uh drove the economic uh stability of the nation by delivering all of all of that cargo. And and I do want to to make the point that this is not just my members, but it's the the workforce, the ILA and the ILWU, the railroad workers that did the intermodal railroad trains, the the truckers, the warehousing uh companies that took in cargo. So we all worked through the pandemic every day. And and it was it was hard. So it is a critically important industry. I can't emphasize enough. While I was at the FMC as a commissioner, I was having CEOs come in and tell me that they were losing 50 or 15 to 20 percent of their business opportunity because they couldn't get uh commodities and and things that they needed, uh products, uh manufactured goods that were necessary for production of their products. And so I I learned firsthand how essential the cargo movement uh system is uh to uh to our nation. And and and it gave me a an appreciation of what the terminal industry did. And that is really what led me into to going over to Naui. And I had a sixth sense that being in the government may be difficult this term with this administration. And so I'm really happy to be where I am.

SPEAKER_01: 9:32

Yeah, that's great. Well, and excuse me, like you said, you were a commissioner during these extraordinary times at the pandemic uh at the FMC during the pandemic, during this heightened cargo congestion, right? I mean, it wasn't, it was, it was the people, we weren't sure which way it was going to go, but the people were actually online shopping, they were buying larger, bulkier items, right? We had a lot of couches, we had a lot of furniture, we had, you know, rugs and desks and tables and everything, right? It's the same 20-foot or 40-foot box that ships all of this. And so the larger the item, the more pressed some of that congestion can become. We had Osra 22 come about while you were at the FMC. So, what are some of the lessons that you're carrying forward from your time at the FMC into now your your role at NAUE?

SPEAKER_00: 10:17

So, you know, I think uh transportation is as a component of the landed cost of a product is very small. You know, if you have a container of Levi's genes that you're selling for$100 a pair, you can get a lot of Levi's genes in that in that container. And and uh you can retail them at uh far more than the$4,000 price of the transport. You might not even be even be able to quantify how much that costs. But congestion or cessation of service or uh or delays in that is critically connected to the overall price of the product and and getting vital commodities in. I remember having to give uh uh calls to port authorities, terminal authorities, uh shipping lines about getting respirators in because they were a lower value commodity product, vis-a-vis, and that's healthcare products generally, uh certain retail goods. So when the steamship lines were negotiating their contracts, they were trying to address their best contracts, which wasn't always in the best interest of the nation. And so so I think uh the the lesson that I learned is we're so important to the nation that we need to be maintained to avoid those situations where we can critically impact the the welfare of uh of the United States by not being able to provide the services that the nation relies on.

SPEAKER_01: 11:51

Well, and I think that that's also a testament to kind of the linchpin nature of the ports, right? They are so essential to the everything. They are the connector between the ports that are the goods that are coming from abroad and and getting to the American people, and and vice versa. You know, if we have something to sell, this is how it goes out to market. So, you know, the the ports and the terminals and and that that piece, right? I mean, that's kind of what the whole podcast by land and by sea is all about is this connection between the surface transportation and the ocean transportation and how critically important it is that everybody understands the value and the importance of both.

SPEAKER_00: 12:30

It's been that way since the IDLX left the terminal, and I think it was 1958 in Newark, New Jersey, and and delivered cargo on an old oil tanker on a and and established uh containerization intermodalization. I think it may have even been more important than the internet because it opened the door for the importation of and the outsourcing of all sorts of uh commodities and movements that we benefit now as consumers. You can sit at your computer and go on Amazon and order as much as you want to order and hit as many buttons and get as responsive a service on the communications uh side of the equation. But ultimately, if the if that cargo is not delivered to your door, it's irrelevant. And so so really that is the underpinning of our of the our economic uh boom internationally. And uh and and it was developed in the United States. Uh it was U.S. shipping companies that developed intermodalism, uh, I think. The Sealand Service was the company that established the first intermodal container shipping services, American President Lines, now part of uh CMA, CGM, developed double stack rain rail services to facilitate a uh a 200% better system of uh of moving intermodal cargo into the interiors. Right now, that at any particular day, more than 50% of the cargo going through the 11 terminals in LA Long Beach goes on either on dock rail that my members pay for, or on uh intermodal rail services to Chicago, Dallas, points in the interior, Memphis. Uh and and that's the same with with all other U.S. ports and terminals. Uh so it's a critically uh important technology that seems so simple, yet has changed really the fabric of uh of the world's economy.

SPEAKER_01: 14:38

So I think that that's a really important point there. When you were talking about the intermodalism, right? That's the the boxes that we're talking about. That's where you have a change from where it was brake bulk or bulk or just basically loose goods that you're you're kind of trying to pack together to more of a systematic, we have the 20-foot equivalent unit, this is the actual box that goes on the ship, or the 40-foot equivalent unit. And often, you know, just to make sure that we're all on the same page, that's how we kind of say how big a vessel is. It's 10,000 TEUs, and that's what they're talking about is 10,000 of those 20-foot equivalent boxes. But the value, as you just pointed out, was now we could just take it off the ship and put it on a rail car. And and like you said, a double-stacked rail car means even more goods can get into the inside of the US and and go to you know, intermodal hubs or or onto a truck, even. What I don't want my listeners to confuse here, and I think that most of them probably have this straight, is that the trucks that you see on the road that don't look like they come apart, right? Just the regular trucks, those are 53 foot for the most part. But the ones that we're talking about, the boxes that we're talking about here are actually literally, they look like cargo container boxes. You'll you'll note them when you see them. And they're sitting on a chassis, which has been part of conversation for quite a while, chassis availability, but that's what it is. It's a chassis, it's the wheels, so it's a base with wheels, and then the box just sits right on top. Such a simple concept, but such an important pivotal moment. And it was created by Malcolm McLean, who was a trucker. He was just trying to figure out an easier, faster way of doing this. You know, it's it's one of those you're looking sitting there looking there, and you're like, there's gotta be an easier way of doing this.

SPEAKER_00: 16:15

You know, it's uh it's amazing, but it's also complex. You know, the the terminals are the hub of where and how we deliver intermodal cargo. We interface with ocean shipping companies. They're our customers. Uh sometimes they have cargo that's gonna go on a railroad. Uh, sometimes it goes on our own rail system of delivery. We spend an immense amount of money on billions of dollars on infrastructure for railroads at our terminals on Dock Rail, and we manage the rail operations, and then we give them in turn to the intermotor rail companies. Uh so uh railroad policy, trucking policy, they all impact our uh our industry because we we handle, as you say, chassis and the availability of chassis. And if they don't have wheels, they don't usually come into our terminal. And if they don't come into our terminal, we're gonna get congestion. So it's uh intricate ballet, and hopefully one of the ballerinas is not thrown to the side uh and missed in a catch because that will uh dilute the the ballet. And uh so so it is uh incredibly comp complex, but all of these industries affect terminal operations. So if it's slow on the rail side, uh that 60% of the cargo coming in from LA Long Beach is slowed down. And so they may say, well, the terminal is really moving slow, and it's moving slow because beneath the terminal there are problems, or coming into the terminal, there are problems. So we have to work very closely with the industries that we work at. We're connected together. We're all almost the only uh a part of the transportation chain that is a hub that connects to everybody. Everyone might have interface with one or the other, but we we uh connect to everyone. And that's why I really believe that the uh our industry, terminal industry is uh uh critically important. And uh so we're looking at you know policies, railroad policies, this merger, Union uh Pacific CSX merger, and which could create the first you know transcontinental railroad that that could do intermodal cargo both sides. It's something that we're gonna look at very closely because it impacts all of the port ranges and the terminals uh that serve those ports uh in the United States.

SPEAKER_01: 18:41

You know, and I I love that analogy. I uh the the ballet dance, right? It is a dance, and it's not just a dance among the ports and terminals, it's a dance throughout the entire everything that touches it, which that's the motor carriers, that's the truckers, right? That's the drage providers, that's the rail, that's that's the everybody who's in and around the port has a piece of that dance. Commissioner Dyes often calls it also an ecosystem, right? It's you always say supply chain, the the world's always said supply chain links or supply chain, but it really is supply chain ecosystem or supply chain dance. I I think that I like that even better. But but so there are so many components to it. There are so many opportunities for for you know jumping in and trying to find areas that we can improve. You mentioned rail being one that you're watching and and figuring out how that can best kind of help the the free flow of goods, right? Because it's all about really the fluidity of movement. Because as you said, when things get gummed up, it doesn't just stop one little piece, it can throw off the whole dance, it can throw off the whole ecosystem. And sometimes we saw that whether it was chassis unavailability, whether it was empty return or non-return, you know, it's it's all working together. And if one little piece gets a little too over overworked or or you know, it's not quite available for the rest of the system to keep moving, that becomes a problem for the entire system. So all of that said, what you experienced during your time at the FMC, you're coming into Nowie Now with fresh eyes. What are some of your priorities that are are during your your first year here, or you're almost through your first year? But uh, what will you continue into year two and year three as your key tenants? I mean, is it infrastructure modernization? Is it smart regulations that support the productivity? Is it where are you going to be focusing a lot of your time to move nowe forward?

SPEAKER_00: 20:31

Well, it's a little bit of everything, you know, uh as it always is. We've got to cover everything for our industry, and that's what we we will do. But uh I I think clearly the president's executive order on maritime industrial base redevelopment and the uh USTR actions on uh on uh shipping and and also uh on container crane equipment and containers, those two actions are being considered to impose penalties as a result of Chinese market dominance. The president's executive order is a broader order that is very broad. It's probably it's probably the biggest maritime pronouncement in decades, but the commitment to to rebuild our industrial base, 98 percent of all marine containers are built in China at subsidized government-controlled facilities. Over well over 60 percent of the world's fleet is built in in China with subsidized government-controlled facilities. And 96 percent of the ship-to-shore cranes that are used in moving cargo, the big cranes that we use large yard equipment, less with uh large yard uh equipment, but but 96 percent of the ship-to-shore cranes are are built in China. So that finding has uh has uh created issues on how the government is going to respond to the trade domination, and and there's gonna be penalties that will be imposed. So we're we're watching very closely and uh working on issues uh to try to address what could occur if someone told a car manufacturer that a vital uh set of equipment that they use in the production of manufacturing cars that 96 percent of that uh market share was going to be taken out of utilization, it would have been it would be a horrific uh event. And that's what we're facing uh here in the United States potentially with penalties. And the penalties uh were justified legally uh through the USTR proceeding. Uh so uh we're working with the administration to get support for uh waivers to allow existing equipment to come in, some transition. We just cannot move from a market that is is so dominant and away from that market for vital equipment without assistance. So we've been working with the White House, with the administration, with Congress to try to develop some policies to mitigate uh some of these costs. So we'd in a perfect world, we would get some time uh to address this, get our equipment in. Some of this stuff was ordered well before the administration, even uh, and then this is uh hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment. Uh these uh an order of container cranes might be$60 million coming in. And we we have you know 25, 40 pieces of major equipment coming in every year that is incredibly efficient and productive in moving cargo. So we need to get uh support for some programs to help uh mitigate the challenge of of uh of addressing a new market uh situation. And and I I think my members are are in general support of developing the maritime industrial base or part of the maritime network. We use many of the employees that steamship companies do, uh, and we work with the intermodal industry as well. And so developing a a better US system of employees and and and uh companies that can supply our companies and the movement of cargo is in our best interest. Ultimately, it's really how do we get there? And and and and you can't go from zero to ninety in without some some special technologies. And so that's what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_01: 24:40

Yeah, and I think that's right. You had actually raised that alarm with one of your reports at the FMC, right? The the China report on container building and chassis building. And so certainly that was uh an eye-opening, although probably come confirming what we what we assumed, but you know, the the very high percentages of what is built in China of the containers and the chassis and these very important pieces of equipment that are part of the overall chain. But I think that that's a really important note that you made in that we need a runway, right? I mean, we we need to make sure that there isn't going to be significant debilitating disruptions. For the most part, it seems people are on board, yes, let's reshore that's maritime industrial base, let's get it kind of back going to the US, but we need a runway because we can't just flip that switch, right? We're not ready to start making all those things tomorrow, but we can get there. But as you're saying, we're we're gonna need to get there quickly. But what is what does that mean, right? What's the timeline for that? And I think that's where that that's where we we we're we're still working all that out. And I'm happy that you're part of those conversations.

SPEAKER_00: 25:42

Well, it's uh it's a critical, uh, critical issue how we transition to this. I mean, we face as an industry challenges with tariffs in general. We're relatively agnostic uh about who comes into the port, so we want as much cargo to come in and and and enter the system and move through our system efficiently and expand. And it's a growth market. We're not uh, you know, if you look at it, there's some dips and stuff, but we are uh industries that have largely historically been situated in areas where we're surrounded by population growth. You know, if you think about it, every port was a port first, then there was a little town there, and then there was a bigger town, and then there was a municipality, and then there was an urban center, and then there was urban sprawl. And how do you continue to take volume growth and uh uh and larger ships coming in uh uh on the other side and address that? How do you expand that? How do you get in efficient cargo moving systems to uh uh to move cargo through your complex more uh rapidly to grow to continue to grow business? So we're we're we're a growing industry. I have no doubt that we will continue to grow. Our question is uh what can we do in our sort of confined footprint to address that going forward? The amount of new greenfield site ports in the United States can be uh counted on one hand. And uh and uh when I started working uh on Capitol Hill, I'm not even gonna go back how far it was, but I did a hearing on the FMC uh commission, the commission authorization bill, and I think there were six million TEUs. I guess I'll have to tell you it was 1990. Uh and uh and in 1990 there were six million TEUs in commerce. I think we're at about 38 million TEUs of of cargo that are moved here. So that is over 600 percent increases uh in that time frame. Uh so we're moving up and and we'll continue to move up. Will we be able to do it? And and uh we have pressures on the for instance on the West Coast, we have intense pressures uh to decarbonize, to reduce emissions, and uh and we may not be able to operate the same way if we don't address those. So we have huge challenges on how we're gonna address local uh and national and international uh requirements on health and welfare and still accommodate the the need to move enhanced cargo.

SPEAKER_01: 28:34

Yeah, I think that's right too. I mean, I think that one thing that happened during COVID is everybody saw the billions of dollars of profits that were happening in the industry, but that's not what is normal for this industry. This is an industry that really is it has some pretty small margins in in 2016. We saw Hanjin go bankrupt. I mean, these were too large to fail, right? That I think that the perception of society waking up to the ocean shipping system was a little bit was great. One thing great that that the industry, that the society kind of saw the value and importance of the ocean shipping side of things. But on the other hand, they might have gotten a little skewed view of it. And so while it's important to continue to push forward for all sorts of different, you were mentioning environmental standards or different kinds of regulations that might be associated with supports or terminals or ocean carriers, it's also those are going to be costs that factor in. And any cost that happens onto the supply chain could be a cost that ends up in the consumer's pocket too. So as with everything, it's important to kind of balance it all out and make sure that you know things continue to move freely and and flow because that is how we get 90% of everything. Perhaps if there's trade rebalances, you know, who knows what we're gonna see in the next five, 10, 15 years, maybe that 90% will go down in number. But as of right now, we're relying on 90% of everything coming through ocean shipping and the ports and terminals. And so, you know, kind of prioritizing the expediency. The movement while also balancing some of the the other concerns generally.

SPEAKER_00: 30:05

You know, I uh learned so much when I was a commissioner about that that dependence on overseas shipping, and it would be a certain commodity that I never knew existed that was vitally important for clean drinking water. Uh and I did get calls from the upper uh Midwest about potentially having to close down facilities because they wouldn't have uh certain types of chemicals that are additives to purify water. And I thought, wow, that's pretty important. I remember talking to the construction industry that builds large skyscrapers in New York. They said, listen, every single time we build a building, it's a new contract. It's uh you don't build the same skyscraper anyplace. Uh so we set up a new supply chain. There's probably 60 companies that we work with, and and then though those companies have 60 people that they work with. And they need to get each product in sequence installed in that building to get it built productively, efficiently. Uh, but the dependence of our nation, both on retail, where we're unfortunately are importing uh much more than we manufacture and on manufacture here in the United States, relies on ocean shipping and even food products, and then and uh just it's just incredible, you know, how much and how many products are used and incorporated into our existence. But I imagine that if you go through a uh a room in in your house, you would find out that so much of it had come from someplace else and then been been incorporated through shipping. Aviation uh services for international shipping are uh very expensive, and you can only use them really for uh low uh high value commodities that uh that can be uh that can uh uh adapt to the cat uh the cost of that. And and so you're reliant on ocean shipping for pretty much the the basic uh subsistence of our nation.

SPEAKER_01: 32:15

That's right. You know, and one thing that I was really interested to learn for for even meat imports. So even if we were to get up to a hundred percent U.S. Texas rancher, you know, uh, of the meat world, the meat that we bring in and imports is is necessary to make a hamburger because the imports have a leaner fat number than than the fatty cows that I guess we have here in the U.S. And so sometimes it it's not just a one or the other, but it's a both. And so even if we were to trade balance, we're gonna still need things coming into this country to help supplement or support our manufacturing, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_00: 32:49

Yeah, that's uh true. I mean, look at the fresh fruit markets, the vegetables markets. We in wintertime we're not growing anything. Uh, and so most of those products are coming from the southern hemisphere, and so it shifts. And so there's an immense uh amount of uh reefer cargo that comes uh from a romance. Same with fisheries products. I I spent a lot of time with Fisheries Institute and and and industries that rely on certain products that we commonly use are accessible at restaurants and uh and at grocery stores, but they might not be uh capable of being uh produced or man or resourced in in the United States waters uh or Canadian waters. So every you know every industry, and it might not be the the product itself, it may be the processing or the packaging. Or the uh I was talking uh to the wine and spirits folks, and they were having immense problems getting bottles and corks uh transported during the pandemics, the pandemic, uh, and you can't transport wine without some sort of stoppage uh system. And so uh they lost opportunity uh and uh and reduced sales. So it is uh critically uh important to our nation.

SPEAKER_01: 34:11

You know, it's it's funny that you mentioned that because I was during the pandemic, I was shopping at Trader Joe's and they said, you know, we're not gonna have the salad dressing in for a while because they're stuck offshore on a barge off of LA. And I was like, it's not entirely accurate, but I love that you just told me that. You know, it's just it was just the cashier explaining to me how the supply chain worked and how they couldn't get in the bottles for the the dressing. It was just a you know, kind of a full circle. All right, society's getting it moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:41

No, I I worked on Capitol Hill on issues related to oil oil spill liability for edible oils for a number of years. So I can tell you that there's a lot of salad dressing floating around out there uh on chips.

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

Well, so part of all of this discussion too is is then the the reliability, the the data dissemination, the this was an initiative that you had at the FMC, your maritime transportation data initiative, because there is fragmentation of data across the chain, right? It can be a little bit difficult to get that transparency, but that was something that you wanted to hit. What was what were some of the pain points of data dissemination under this maritime transportation data initiative? So, what did it reveal, and how do you kind of plan to advance that work here at Nowie?

SPEAKER_00: 35:30

So, you know, it's not the most integral issue that faces my industry, but we suffer for lack of bad good data. Uh for instance, right now, there's a lot of blank sailings and ships are uh ship services are being canceled. And we are not getting adequate information about these to try to help us adjust. Carriers were reluctant. Uh there's all sorts of information that's out there. And so there's not a question of access to information. You can see where a ship is. What you're not getting is operational information about uh when it intends to be landed and and how you could fit it into your system to forecast need and so uh and such. So at the FMC, uh I proposed that that uh information be made transparent and that it be real-time information that included operational information. And and that was for the terminals as well. And we we have an obligation, for instance, to provide good information about when our gates are going to be open and closed and what our services are restrictions. And so our my industry, the terminal industry, uh does suffer for lack of uh of uh good information. And it's it's ad hoc. There's some carriers that are that are uh better than others. But in this day and age, we should be able to transmit information. These are huge pieces of equipment. It's not like rocket science to to to see where they are. Uh what needs to occur is that information needs to be provided to the public so they know when they're going to get there, what the plan is for if you got onto an airplane and you didn't have any ETA, people would be upset because they're trying to plan connecting flights and make sure they're going to get there on time and and monitoring it. But cargo does not vote and does not talk. And so I I I would I would say the FMC should take up those recommendations, uh, look at them again, because they are gonna cost us billions of dollars. And so our my industry would like to receive better information. And even while the recommendations required us to be transparent on our operations, we're committed to do that in the interests of business. So it's just common sense, frankly, and and it's not creating a whole new system. It's just there should be a mandate that they provide us, estimated arrivals and certain standards of data that could be made publicly accessible. So all this technology, technology is reliant on data and data input. And if the data is not there, you can have the best technology in the world, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't have that element that you need to use to make quantifiable decisions. And so hopefully, as time goes on, we'll uh recognize the value of doing something like that. It will help our industry ultimately if we can. I mean, I I don't know how many uh places in the world where you can have a cancellation and and find out that it was canceled six weeks before and and not be told of that cancellation.

SPEAKER_01: 38:55

Well, and I think that's so right, too. One of the other points that you made was that just speaking the same language, right? Having the data come come in a very consistent package. And with your MTDI, one of the best practices that you pointed out was the Digital Container Shipping Association, their standards. And there's been actually a lot of advancement with DCSA adoption across the industry, but it's it's got to be more, right? It's got to be more of that visibility, more of that consistency. And and I think that we're we're getting there certainly, but we all need to kind of speak the same language. It's the same way that credit cards can be accepted around the world because of Swift. Uh, you know, I think DCSA will will help us get there at least for that backend side of things, for for the the speaking the same language side of things.

SPEAKER_00: 39:37

So they developed the standards we uh incorporated into the into the MTDI recommendations. So everyone's agreed on pretty much the standards. It's not an issue of of that. It's just uh not all of the information to impose uh the value proposition for the data has been implemented, and that's real-time information, operational uh changes.

SPEAKER_01: 40:03

Yeah, that's right. Well, let's change gears a little bit here. I want to make sure that we're still talking about labor and workforce. So obviously, like we said, ports are powered by people. How does now we engage on labor and workforce, safety today, training for tomorrow? How does that all work into everything that you do? It's a obviously integral piece.

SPEAKER_00: 40:20

Yeah, sure. Uh I'm uh the president of a National Association of Waterfront Employers, representing the folks we talked about earlier. We're also I'm the executive director of what's the National Maritime Safety Association. That's many of the same companies and their personnel that are engaged in operational issues related to the safety and welfare of the workforce. We work continually with our longshoremen uh employees to make sure we have the safest work and working environment that we we we have. We we we we work through the collective bargaining agreement to come to agreements on how to adopt new tech technology. That that is probably gonna be the challenge in the future. I hate even to bring up or talk about the issue of automation because I don't think anyone really feels comfortable with automation. Uh but but we need to certainly to get more equipment that will allow us to maximize productivity and uh and generate more growth at ports. And so we'll we'll work with our longshoremen on that. And really, if if you if you look during the pandemic, they were the people that were doing the work of delivering cargo and and we work with them and we we manage them. And so safety is a critically important issue. I spend a fair amount of my time learning from my industry on on what what these issues are, uh, and we have to work with our uh with uh with our labor unions to make sure that's done the right way and that we can continue to move forward to address growth, expansion, uh, and make sure that we can serve the the shipping public the the way we need to. So it's a continual uh uh challenge, but I really believe that it could be the most important thing that we do to make sure that that we can continue to grow and expand as an industry and do it in a safe, efficient way. And uh like I said, there's immense challenges. You can't build something else. No one's gonna allow us in LA where you have so many people to build a new major complex there. So we really have to work to get the uh maximize the use use uh uh of uh the facilities that we have and and grow it. And so so that's why we you know we're challenged with the administration's uh trade policies on STS cranes. Uh those would be the cranes, uh the next generation cranes that would will allow us to to accommodate the trade growth, to maximize the the use of of our facilities. You know, frankly, we're gonna need people to always work. And I anticipate that there will be growth at all of our uh terminals in in employment. It's just how do we get there? And so that's that's the challenge. So we're working on that. You know, this is my members themselves, but we're supporting them on policies to make sure that that that can happen.

SPEAKER_01: 43:30

And I I think that that's great. And that leads me into kind of my next question here is the US R is US ports are facing global competition. And so talking about the ship to shore cranes, right? We're gonna have to get the the cargo off of the vessel onto the port. And and the fastest we can do that, right, the better we can do that. But are there any other gaps? Or or you know, now we I'm sure is making the case for more investment in the ports and in the terminals and the urgent need for all of that. What are some of those arguments that you're making beyond just shift to shore, but but just making it so that the the ports and terminals are supported?

SPEAKER_00: 44:03

Yeah, I we're we are concerned. I represent U.S. marine terminal operations. So I I work with my friends from the north and south on safety issues and it uh but on competitive issues, I'm firmly on the side of U.S. based entities. We have suffered a little bit as a result of policies that that impose financial burdens on us, for instance, uh penalties on Chinese ships uh as a result of uh of uh the US TR determination. Is that going to erode uh trade in the northern tiers, uh both uh Massport and New York and the uh Pacific Northwest Seaport Alliance, uh Seattle, Tacoma, and and also uh probably uh Oakland and LA. And it could. And so we've uh we've suggested that the same sort of penalties be imposed on cargo that's being transshipped through uh Mexican uh or uh Canadian ports. And so we believe that any penalties that our government is imposing on our uh our industry that impact them should be imposed on something going north or south to avoid that that very fact. Uh, you know, the Canadians have essentially four ports, two on the east and two on the west. Maybe they'll get a little bit more. You know, we in the United States we have 20, 30 major ports that serve all through the United States. So Canadian policy is focused on their their growth of those support complexes in order to get cargo into the United States. And and our government has has imposed for various reasons, you know, uh taxes like the harbor maintenance tax that force shippers to pay more to get dredge funds and uh and also potentially penalties as a result of USTR action. So we're hopeful that there could be some equalization. I think we'd be comfortable on uh apples to apples competition to the north and south, but it's not that way right now. And so we we need to do something about that.

SPEAKER_01: 46:16

And that's so interesting. I hadn't actually heard that, the the concern about going to Canadian or Mexican ports, but I I often hear that about harbor maintenance tax, right? And the the loophole was closed on that. But you're right, USTR Section 301 is assessing against China built or operated vessels. But yeah, if if you're 50 miles away or you know, maybe 100 and 200 miles away, and you could just go to a different port just up the way instead. Interesting, yeah, that that is a loophole that that seems like it should be closed.

SPEAKER_00: 46:46

We we've asked for it, but there's actually some recognition in the president's executive order on this. So we're gonna work to to ensure that there's just equality in the assessments. Uh, we shouldn't be giving someone an opportunity to serve our nation's supply through ports in their nation because of our federal policies. And so so we're hopeful that we can get some adjustments on that. And and you know, I I hate I hate to we have a really uh good relationship with our uh Canadian uh counterparts, less uh experience with uh Mexico, but but it certainly hurts us though those actions that our government's taking in uh in the competition that exists. Uh so we want just fair competition uh uh on the the assessment of of of uh uh cargoes.

SPEAKER_01: 47:40

Yeah, and and it seems like this might have been an inadvertent, you know, shooting us in the foot kind of thing where we didn't mean to be cargo diversion, right? We didn't mean to be creating a cargo diversion opportunity for these vessels to go elsewhere. It was it was trying to impact behavior for the dominance of China in the maritime vessel shipbuilding space. But yeah, the it's important for the industry to stay engaged and to notice these loopholes that need closing.

SPEAKER_00: 48:04

Yeah, no, no, no. If we uh it i if these are governmental actions, I mean, on the other hand, the Canadian government and you know spent a lot of money providing infrastructure funding for a much smaller pool of uh of uh uh port complexes in order to serve our markets because we're such big markets. So uh I think in 2005 or 2006, only about 5% of the intermodal cargo was going through Canadian ports. The last the last time I looked, I think close to 60, and this is into Chicago, from West Coast to into Chicago was five or six six points percentage points, and now that's over 60 percent.

SPEAKER_01: 48:46

Well, we're almost done. I've really enjoyed the conversation here today, but and I'm sure we'll have you back before this. But if we had you back when we have you back in five years, what do you want us to be celebrating the achievements that Nowie has is looking for in the next five years? What are we gonna be talking about in five years, do you think? A wild question, because who knows, right?

SPEAKER_00: 49:06

But no, no. I mean, uh I I think we would like to get some adjustment to whatever the trade policy is to make sure we can continue to to handle trade moving forward. We need to come up with policy adjustments on how, you know, this administration right now is is not inclined to push environmental, you know, decarbonization, for instance. But we still face pressures with other entities, international pressures or state or or municipal or or local uh pressures. So how our industry uh addresses that with costs so high in these areas of constrained growth to adapt, we need to come up with a plan to uh address what the what the decision is on uh future uh issue, environmental health and safety issues that we have to address. We're gonna I would like to have dedicated funding for infrastructure at our terms. We're the the no. We're the we're actually the hub uh of international trade. And if you don't keep the uh hub uh lubed and operating smoothly, uh everything else is gonna fall apart. So I I would hope that we could attract a way of maintaining some level of dedication to commitments of infrastructure, and that is water, that's shore side, and that's even some of the uh the equipment and and the mandates that we're that we're facing. And and I think greater coordination with uh government, state agencies, and the private sector. You know, how do we reach out and make sure our customers are getting the best services and we're not impeding their operations by virtue of our operations? So those would be the targets and uh and and I would say greater recognition for our uh our our importance as an industry and acknowledgement of the services that are provided uh generally uh for the shipping industry. So maritime shipping industry. So those are the broad brush directions that we're gonna be aimed at, but but essentially I want to make a better environment uh conditioned policy to help our industries move forward. We we're we have a new uh logo on maritime port operations, port and terminal operations 2040, a road uh 2040, a roadmap to the future. And so, how do we get to where we're gonna need to be by 2040? And and so that's what we're uh targeting long range and short range will go as issue comes up to address the concerns of the industry.

SPEAKER_01: 52:00

That's great. Well, in 15 years, we may have U.S. carriers as as part of the competitive market in the ocean carriers world. Who knows where we'll be in 15 years? Well, before we go, you have a big conference coming up next week. Uh, what can attendees expect? Why is this such an important conference right now, gathering the industry, having these conversations?

SPEAKER_00: 52:19

So, well, one of the things I'm trying to do with my association is increase our presence with all of the shipping uh communities, so uh intermote trucking, railroads, bco's, uh, shippers, mvoccs. Uh, we've we've got a pretty good relationship with the cares because we we some many of our our our officials that that work in our industry are are from steamship lines and they work uh there uh and we have contracts with them, but we need to to do a better job. And so our annual conference is in Huntington Beach, I uh in California, excited. We're gonna talk about lots of interesting issues, warm weather, and get together to see how we can work on supporting the policies that we need. Uh and so going forward, I I do think we it's incumbent on our industry uh to increasingly take uh a leadership role and to work with those in the shipping industry that we we should work with all the time. And so I can tell you when I was at the FMC, I heard more about trucking issues than I heard in some uh cases about shipping issues and terminal issues, and they're vital to the movement of cargo through our terminals. So we have to make sure our own operations work the uh the same way and and vice and vice versa. We I remember they all came to uh to the uh terminals. So you guys have to be open 24 hours, seven days a week. And we we told them no one, we've we've tried that before. We open our terminals on Sunday and no one shows up. Truckers don't have any more time left uh to service that, and the warehouses are not open, so you could pick up cargo from my terminal and have a truck driver go out and wait for two days before the warehouse uh opens up or the transload facility to take the 40-foot container and put it in the 53-foot container. So uh we're dependent on all of those elements, uh, ocean carriers, inomotor rail, trucking, uh the BCOs themselves. And so I'd I'd like to make sure that our companies are actively engaged in all aspects of logistics uh going forward. And we're the connective body that uh that that uh that hosts them all.

SPEAKER_01: 54:43

Well, that's great. Well, enjoy, have fun, enjoy the warm weather. Thank you so much for joining us today. For listeners who want to follow along, where should they go? Where can they find now we more information?

SPEAKER_00: 54:53

www.naui.com.

SPEAKER_01: 54:56

Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Carl. Great to have you.

SPEAKER_00: 55:00

Okay, Lauren. It's great to see you again, and uh I will see you next time.

SPEAKER_01: 55:05

Perfect, thank you.